Now is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It won’t last forever. We must take it or leave it. – C.S. Lewis
Wednesday, November 3, 2010
Sound familiar?
St. Thomas the Apostle and St. Salome churches--our brethren in the struggle.
These 2 quotes from the above article beg to be read. I hope that all of the "non-staff" people who read this blog will take a minute from their day to do so. If you think our fate will be any different, think again.
"The Catholic Diocese of Rochester is in danger of downsizing itself out of existence. Over the past 30 years, the loss of priests, parishes and schools has been astounding, well beyond the national average."
and
"History shows this is a plan destined for failure. Closing and combining parishes results in dramatic decreases in all three vital areas for a church: attendance, sacraments received and revenue. Consolidation of Sacred Heart, Holy Rosary, and Most Precious Blood cost the community 67 percent of parishioners."
Where are those people attending mass now? If they aren't attending mass anymore, it just shows how spiritually immature they were to begin with. Don't have your favorite little church on the street corner anymore? Well then forget God, the Eucharist, and the message of the Gospel. It saddens me at how we have become so religious with our building obsession we have totally forgotten what the message of Christ was.
We're putting God in a box, so to speak. We only want to experience Him in exactly they way we want it, anything differently we just shun the whole thing. Jesus didn't matter much to those parishoners, so I guess they were just taking up space in those churches anyway.
Anonymous 1:02, you are quite proficient at calling people names who do not agree with you. This blog must be an endless irritation to someone of your spiritual maturity and enlightenment. How can you stand it?
Speaking of this blog, at what point is this blog shut down? When does SOP disband? Who would ever want to join a church with this horrendously public war zone? No wonder the Catholic church is in decline, its members can't seem to agree on anything.
I've been reading about some Boston-area churches which were slated for closure. Parishioners have kept 24-hour vigils at some of these churches, in one case for six years now. An amazing commitment of time and resources! I would NOT call these people spiritually immature.
OK, so WHEN we go to one church (whether it takes years or not who knows) will you guys still be around on this blog to complain and complain? What is your goal so you know when you have achieved it?
I hate to keep picking on you, but you seem to be the one who does most of the complaining around here. We are working to save St. Vincent and turn around our parish. You are the one who can't seem to accept that and who takes delight in disrupting and insulting others. Sorry, but that's how it looks to me. If you truly cared about our parish, you would at least try to understand another viewpoint. Bill is a good example of someone who is seeking the truth and respects others, regardless of their stance on this important issue.
Oh Gretchen... I for all this time had been so impressed by your respect for and support of all bloggers, no matter what their stance. I am so sad to see now that your attitude has changed. Sarcasm? Picking on people? I am very disappointed in you.
Shame on your, Anonymous 1:25, for pointing out the plank in SOP's eye. Didn't you know that this blog is for pointing out the speck in the parish administration's eye?
I guess there is only so much that even a wonderful woman like Gretchen can take. If only the SOP could actually be heard then all of this nonsence could come to an end.
Anonymous of 1:42 PM said, "OK, so WHEN we go to one church (whether it takes years or not who knows) will you guys still be around on this blog to complain and complain?"
Seems most of the Anonymous posters like yourself are doing the complaining. VERY few people who use just their first name (or a first name) complain. And, your "goal" seems evident...to stir the pot.
As for my goal --- look at the top of the page! I hope to use my time, talent and treasure to SAVE OUR PARISH because I feel it is what Jesus wants me to do....help find the lost sheep AND save St. Vincent de Paul Church from destruction. Look at it this way "1:42" we are saving ASP 250,000 in property purchases. (check St. Mary's page on the Facilities presentation)
One final thing...if you find this blog and SOP to be "too spiritually immature" for you...then stop blogging here, and create a blog where you and your friends can go on...and on...and on...in deep spiritual maturity.
wonderful woman?! Laughable. Whackjob, maybe. Arrogant, absolutely. Entitled, sure. Mean spirited, no doubt about it. But one thing Gretchen is not: wonderful.
Yell at me all you want, but maybe now she might feel the way she has made Dean feel for months. Oh, the hypocricy!
Neither Mary or Gretchen really answered the question to "will SOP be around even when St. Vincent's is closed"? After all, this website was created before the St. Vincent controversy. Saving our Parish...from what?? We all know SOP's real intention is to just get rid of Dean. And I bet nobody on SOP would deny that.
I'm only human, Steven. There is a saying, "You can dish it out, but you can't take it."
Not referring to you, of course, but to our friend who enjoys jabbing others from the safety of anonymity.
The point of this post was to highlight that our parish is not the only one suffering the indignity of a forced sale and closure--what another here is referring to as a speck in the eye of our parish administration. To point out the issue and disagree is apparently the plank.
But the real sin, I guess, is to resist the complaining meanspiritedness that exudes from the comments of those who are in favor of selling St. Vincent's. I apologize for abandoning political correctness.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - just imagine if all the blood, sweat, passion and treasure that went into this movement actually went into something that matters to God, like volunteering at a food pantry or working with latch-key kids.
Bryan, you can try reading my post above and Mary's post again. Both of them are pretty clear about the goals of many of our parish's members, and not just those who are responsible for the website and blog.
I am a part of the SOP and i will tell you that no we are trying to save this church and community not "get rid of Dean". This church is a piece of history not only for the town but also the community and i am sure that Dean will not be around forever as no one ever is but i would only pray that this church and community could be left in tact for many generations to come. I truly hope that when Dean does decide to move on that he realizes the impact he has left on this community because his wake will be tremendous.
2:07 and 2:15 I could also sling mud at you but i will not because as the SOP has tried to do all along i will do the right thing and ignore your truly EVIL comments about a woman you quite possibly have never sat and talked with.
More vagueness from SOP. Mary: "Find the lost sheep"...what does that specifically look like? You need a website to accomplish that? If anything your website serves to drive more sheep away.
If the SOP would have offered up solutions rather than complaining all the time maybe they would have been heard with a loud voice. It is amazing that you think you are saving the parish when actually you are driving it apart. If you are not happy with anything that is going on within our parish please leave. Oh by the way Gretchen you say you are too busy “working” to issue the SOP’s financial plan how come you are not to busy to bash someone on the blog!
"Not being heard" is just typical code for "not doing what I want." The parish councils and staff heard you. And they disagreed, and chose to do something else. Its that simple. But that was not enough for you SOP people, was it? No, so you are going to try and FORCE the staff to change with yard signs, community meetings, etc. I think the staff hears you, don't worry about that. After all I am sure they pass your signs every day. Maybe YOU should be the ones to stop jamming your agenda down everyone's throats.
If you are talking about my 2:51 comment above, I swear I am not on staff, nor was I the person before stating I wasn't on staff. I am also not 2:43. But even if was on staff, does my voice not matter?
Glad to see SOP is so open minded on all opinions.
Wow! I take an afternoon off from the blog and boy, is there a swing to negativity from the SOP hecklers. You guys are relentless.
2:07 you said, "Yell at me all you want, but maybe now she might feel the way she has made Dean feel for months. Oh, the hypocricy!" Where has Gretchen ever blogged or posted anything negative about Dean?
2:15...you said, "We all know SOP's real intention is to just get rid of Dean. And I bet nobody on SOP would deny that. " Excuse me...I NEVER posted that or said it at a meeting. My only issue with him is how he handled the whole annoucement/discernment (or lack there of) on such a major decision. This isn't something one person, their staff and some committee members (All totaling less than 100 people) decide...this is a PARISH-WIDE decision, because it affects the entire parish. By not making it a PARISH-WIDE decision, parishioners (lots of them) are mad.
2:20...I DO volunteer at the food pantry.
2:34...finding the lost sheep...you go where you think they might be and LOOK for them. When I worked in parish ministry the pastors (all pastors, no P.A.'s) in a given area (referred to as a deanery back then but I'm sure that changed) met on a monthly basis. So, a person could start there...at the other churches. Perhaps that is too uncomfortable. They could talk to them when they bump into them...at the gym, Wegmans, Walmart, or on Market Street. Perhaps that is too uncomfortable. You could pick up a phone and call them. Perhaps, again, that is too uncomfortable. Or, perhaps our P.A. has tried these, I do not know...but I am sure you will tell me. When I see someone at the gym, store or on Market Street who I haven't seen at the 9:30 AM mass where I usually am...I simple comment that I miss them. If they wish to elaborate as to why they aren't there, then I listen ("Oh, we go to St. Mary's -- our kids are in religious ed. at ASA on Sunday's now") So, I guess that is how it LOOKS...to seek out the lost sheep. Website is not necessary. And no, our "efforts" did not drive away those sheep...our efforts only seem to be irritating the "wannabe" good and loyal sheep.
2:43,...you seem very eager to see the SOP Financial Plan...you really should have come on Sunday. Patience is a virtue. You also speak of solutions...AGAIN, The parish admin don't want solutions, they just want to sell St. Vincents. I would be more than happy to present you with a two church plan...are you interested????
Ok, so let's imagine this.. St. Vincent's is sold then WHAT?!? Before I joined the SOP efforts, I said (in front of the Council) I did not care if St. Vincent was sold as long as I see a Financial Strategic PLan for long term solvency. All I heard from Council was: if sold then we'll be OK. However, a good administrator will consider the following points: not everyone who currently attends St. Vincent will follow to St. Mary's and/or donate equally; achieving financial solvency requires sacrifice including holding all future acquisititions; and the need to develop programs to increase revenues aside from Sunday offerings and bequests.
Imagine my surprise when instead of a long term strategic plan, I am shown a Facilities plan with a $250,000 tab for the future purchase of property near or around St. Mary's!!!! Sorry, I just could not take it, so I joined SOP. In regards to lost sheep, like Mary, I do ask people I know where they have been (and I have been in the Corning area just 1 year and 3 months).In all fairness I did receive a phone call from the Welcome committee and an invitation for coffee after Sunday Mass. But how come those who have been here longer can't seem to be able to do the same?
Done, here, back to my prayers for both sides. Yours in Christ, Emily
Gretchen, Please wear these blog postings as a badge of honor. You are truly being persecuted for your faith and convictions. I call on all of you spineless mudslingers TO USE YOUR NAMES. I bet you are polite to her face WHEN SHE IS IN CHURCH EVERY WEEK AND MORE. Talk about hypocrisy. And to all who don't like the vagueness of "find the lost sheep", Jesus left the 99 and went after the ONE lost sheep. HE didn't check out the lost sheep's religious leanings or past transgressions first. HE didn't judge. He just searched until he found it and rejoiced. For those who question where SOP's energies are, obviously you don't read nay of our posted articles. This is from MINUTES FROM the 9/12 meeting article regarding our involvement: FACT: Collectively, we are both converts and lifelong Catholics who do or have participated in: St. Mary’s Parish Council, Strategic Planning ASA, Web Committee, Youth Ministry Council, RCIA, Parish Council (General), Eucharistic Ministry, Lector, Bulletin Committee, Hospitality, Arts and Entertainment, Youth Retreat, and more…
Perhaps, if you all checked out OUR articles and FACTS instead of simply spending your time looking for ways to incite you would realize that your answers are in our presentations posted on the site. Answer this: are you OK with spending $250000.00 of the $350000.00 sale of St. Vincent's proceeds on "new property acquisitions" around St. Mary's?? This is a line item on the Parish Facilities Report. Have you even analyzed it? Prove our position wrong with FACTS. Kathy
And heres more: How ironic! Jim and Lydia GARRITY. Now that's a God-incidence.
ReplyDeleteYou can't make this stuff up. :-)
ReplyDeletePlease, can we contact these people? Thanks for finding this Gretchen.
ReplyDeleteThese 2 quotes from the above article beg to be read. I hope that all of the "non-staff" people who read this blog will take a minute from their day to do so. If you think our fate will be any different, think again.
ReplyDelete"The Catholic Diocese of Rochester is in danger of downsizing itself out of existence. Over the past 30 years, the loss of priests, parishes and schools has been astounding, well beyond the national average."
and
"History shows this is a plan destined for failure. Closing and combining parishes results in dramatic decreases in all three vital areas for a church: attendance, sacraments received and revenue. Consolidation of Sacred Heart, Holy Rosary, and Most Precious Blood cost the community 67 percent of parishioners."
Where are those people attending mass now? If they aren't attending mass anymore, it just shows how spiritually immature they were to begin with. Don't have your favorite little church on the street corner anymore? Well then forget God, the Eucharist, and the message of the Gospel. It saddens me at how we have become so religious with our building obsession we have totally forgotten what the message of Christ was.
ReplyDeleteWe're putting God in a box, so to speak. We only want to experience Him in exactly they way we want it, anything differently we just shun the whole thing. Jesus didn't matter much to those parishoners, so I guess they were just taking up space in those churches anyway.
Anonymous 1:02, you are quite proficient at calling people names who do not agree with you. This blog must be an endless irritation to someone of your spiritual maturity and enlightenment. How can you stand it?
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of this blog, at what point is this blog shut down? When does SOP disband? Who would ever want to join a church with this horrendously public war zone? No wonder the Catholic church is in decline, its members can't seem to agree on anything.
ReplyDeleteDeflection.
ReplyDeleteI've been reading about some Boston-area churches which were slated for closure. Parishioners have kept 24-hour vigils at some of these churches, in one case for six years now. An amazing commitment of time and resources! I would NOT call these people spiritually immature.
ReplyDeleteOK, so WHEN we go to one church (whether it takes years or not who knows) will you guys still be around on this blog to complain and complain? What is your goal so you know when you have achieved it?
ReplyDeleteI hate to keep picking on you, but you seem to be the one who does most of the complaining around here. We are working to save St. Vincent and turn around our parish. You are the one who can't seem to accept that and who takes delight in disrupting and insulting others. Sorry, but that's how it looks to me. If you truly cared about our parish, you would at least try to understand another viewpoint. Bill is a good example of someone who is seeking the truth and respects others, regardless of their stance on this important issue.
ReplyDeleteOh Gretchen... I for all this time had been so impressed by your respect for and support of all bloggers, no matter what their stance. I am so sad to see now that your attitude has changed. Sarcasm? Picking on people? I am very disappointed in you.
ReplyDeleteShame on your, Anonymous 1:25, for pointing out the plank in SOP's eye. Didn't you know that this blog is for pointing out the speck in the parish administration's eye?
ReplyDeleteI guess there is only so much that even a wonderful woman like Gretchen can take. If only the SOP could actually be heard then all of this nonsence could come to an end.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of 1:42 PM said, "OK, so WHEN we go to one church (whether it takes years or not who knows) will you guys still be around on this blog to complain and complain?"
ReplyDeleteSeems most of the Anonymous posters like yourself are doing the complaining. VERY few people who use just their first name (or a first name) complain. And, your "goal" seems evident...to stir the pot.
As for my goal --- look at the top of the page! I hope to use my time, talent and treasure to SAVE OUR PARISH because I feel it is what Jesus wants me to do....help find the lost sheep AND save St. Vincent de Paul Church from destruction. Look at it this way "1:42" we are saving ASP 250,000 in property purchases. (check St. Mary's page on the Facilities presentation)
One final thing...if you find this blog and SOP to be "too spiritually immature" for you...then stop blogging here, and create a blog where you and your friends can go on...and on...and on...in deep spiritual maturity.
wonderful woman?! Laughable. Whackjob, maybe. Arrogant, absolutely. Entitled, sure. Mean spirited, no doubt about it. But one thing Gretchen is not: wonderful.
ReplyDeleteYell at me all you want, but maybe now she might feel the way she has made Dean feel for months. Oh, the hypocricy!
Amen, 2:07.
ReplyDeleteNeither Mary or Gretchen really answered the question to "will SOP be around even when St. Vincent's is closed"? After all, this website was created before the St. Vincent controversy. Saving our Parish...from what?? We all know SOP's real intention is to just get rid of Dean. And I bet nobody on SOP would deny that.
Hmm, Gretchen takes a stand and uses her own name. Why not use your name, Anonymous at 2:07?
ReplyDeleteI'm only human, Steven. There is a saying, "You can dish it out, but you can't take it."
ReplyDeleteNot referring to you, of course, but to our friend who enjoys jabbing others from the safety of anonymity.
The point of this post was to highlight that our parish is not the only one suffering the indignity of a forced sale and closure--what another here is referring to as a speck in the eye of our parish administration. To point out the issue and disagree is apparently the plank.
But the real sin, I guess, is to resist the complaining meanspiritedness that exudes from the comments of those who are in favor of selling St. Vincent's. I apologize for abandoning political correctness.
Wow 2:07 - thank you for finally saying what I have heard and been thinking for months. Yes, SOP what is your goal?
ReplyDeleteI've said it before and I'll say it again - just imagine if all the blood, sweat, passion and treasure that went into this movement actually went into something that matters to God, like volunteering at a food pantry or working with latch-key kids.
ReplyDeleteGreat point 2:20.... too bad St. Gretchen and her SOP cult prefer bashing others to actually progress...
ReplyDeleteBryan, you can try reading my post above and Mary's post again. Both of them are pretty clear about the goals of many of our parish's members, and not just those who are responsible for the website and blog.
ReplyDeleteI am a part of the SOP and i will tell you that no we are trying to save this church and community not "get rid of Dean". This church is a piece of history not only for the town but also the community and i am sure that Dean will not be around forever as no one ever is but i would only pray that this church and community could be left in tact for many generations to come. I truly hope that when Dean does decide to move on that he realizes the impact he has left on this community because his wake will be tremendous.
ReplyDelete2:07 and 2:15 I could also sling mud at you but i will not because as the SOP has tried to do all along i will do the right thing and ignore your truly EVIL comments about a woman you quite possibly have never sat and talked with.
Jennifer
More vagueness from SOP. Mary: "Find the lost sheep"...what does that specifically look like? You need a website to accomplish that? If anything your website serves to drive more sheep away.
ReplyDeleteIf the SOP would have offered up solutions rather than complaining all the time maybe they would have been heard with a loud voice.
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing that you think you are saving the parish when actually you are driving it apart. If you are not happy with anything that is going on within our parish please leave.
Oh by the way Gretchen you say you are too busy “working” to issue the SOP’s financial plan how come you are not to busy to bash someone on the blog!
The presentation will go on the website, not this blog. I don't know how to manage the website. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteAnd by all standards of decency and fairness, I did not bash any commenters.
"Not being heard" is just typical code for "not doing what I want." The parish councils and staff heard you. And they disagreed, and chose to do something else. Its that simple. But that was not enough for you SOP people, was it? No, so you are going to try and FORCE the staff to change with yard signs, community meetings, etc. I think the staff hears you, don't worry about that. After all I am sure they pass your signs every day. Maybe YOU should be the ones to stop jamming your agenda down everyone's throats.
ReplyDeleteGretchen- Sounds like somebody from the staff, who keeps stating they are not on the staff. Don't worry about it.
ReplyDeleteIf you are talking about my 2:51 comment above, I swear I am not on staff, nor was I the person before stating I wasn't on staff. I am also not 2:43. But even if was on staff, does my voice not matter?
ReplyDeleteGlad to see SOP is so open minded on all opinions.
So many denials...
ReplyDeleteSteven and 2:07, May God bless you, I heard that once at a sermon given by Fr. Boniface, GOD BLESS YOU!
ReplyDeleteCarol
Carol, what did I do?
ReplyDeleteWow! I take an afternoon off from the blog and boy, is there a swing to negativity from the SOP hecklers. You guys are relentless.
ReplyDelete2:07 you said, "Yell at me all you want, but maybe now she might feel the way she has made Dean feel for months. Oh, the hypocricy!" Where has Gretchen ever blogged or posted anything negative about Dean?
2:15...you said, "We all know SOP's real intention is to just get rid of Dean. And I bet nobody on SOP would deny that. " Excuse me...I NEVER posted that or said it at a meeting. My only issue with him is how he handled the whole annoucement/discernment (or lack there of) on such a major decision. This isn't something one person, their staff and some committee members (All totaling less than 100 people) decide...this is a PARISH-WIDE decision, because it affects the entire parish. By not making it a PARISH-WIDE decision, parishioners (lots of them) are mad.
2:20...I DO volunteer at the food pantry.
2:34...finding the lost sheep...you go where you think they might be and LOOK for them. When I worked in parish ministry the pastors (all pastors, no P.A.'s) in a given area (referred to as a deanery back then but I'm sure that changed) met on a monthly basis. So, a person could start there...at the other churches. Perhaps that is too uncomfortable. They could talk to them when they bump into them...at the gym, Wegmans, Walmart, or on Market Street. Perhaps that is too uncomfortable. You could pick up a phone and call them. Perhaps, again, that is too uncomfortable. Or, perhaps our P.A. has tried these, I do not know...but I am sure you will tell me. When I see someone at the gym, store or on Market Street who I haven't seen at the 9:30 AM mass where I usually am...I simple comment that I miss them. If they wish to elaborate as to why they aren't there, then I listen ("Oh, we go to St. Mary's -- our kids are in religious ed. at ASA on Sunday's now") So, I guess that is how it LOOKS...to seek out the lost sheep. Website is not necessary. And no, our "efforts" did not drive away those sheep...our efforts only seem to be irritating the "wannabe" good and loyal sheep.
2:43,...you seem very eager to see the SOP Financial Plan...you really should have come on Sunday. Patience is a virtue. You also speak of solutions...AGAIN, The parish admin don't want solutions, they just want to sell St. Vincents. I would be more than happy to present you with a two church plan...are you interested????
Any further comments to my post...
Ok, so let's imagine this.. St. Vincent's is sold then WHAT?!? Before I joined the SOP efforts, I said (in front of the Council) I did not care if St. Vincent was sold as long as I see a Financial Strategic PLan for long term solvency. All I heard from Council was: if sold then we'll be OK.
ReplyDeleteHowever, a good administrator will consider the following points: not everyone who currently attends St. Vincent will follow to St. Mary's and/or donate equally; achieving financial solvency requires sacrifice including holding all future acquisititions; and the need to develop programs to increase revenues aside from Sunday offerings and bequests.
Imagine my surprise when instead of a long term strategic plan, I am shown a Facilities plan with a $250,000 tab for the future purchase of property near or around St. Mary's!!!!
Sorry, I just could not take it, so I joined SOP.
In regards to lost sheep, like Mary, I do ask people I know where they have been (and I have been in the Corning area just 1 year and 3 months).In all fairness I did receive a phone call from the Welcome committee and an invitation for coffee after Sunday Mass.
But how come those who have been here longer can't seem to be able to do the same?
Done, here, back to my prayers for both sides.
Yours in Christ,
Emily
Gretchen,
ReplyDeletePlease wear these blog postings as a badge of honor. You are truly being persecuted for your faith and convictions. I call on all of you spineless mudslingers TO USE YOUR NAMES. I bet you are polite to her face WHEN SHE IS IN CHURCH EVERY WEEK AND MORE. Talk about hypocrisy. And to all who don't like the vagueness of "find the lost sheep", Jesus left the 99 and went after the ONE lost sheep. HE didn't check out the lost sheep's religious leanings or past transgressions first. HE didn't judge. He just searched until he found it and rejoiced.
For those who question where SOP's energies are, obviously you don't read nay of our posted articles. This is from MINUTES FROM the 9/12 meeting article regarding our involvement:
FACT: Collectively, we are both converts and lifelong Catholics who do or have participated in:
St. Mary’s Parish Council, Strategic Planning ASA, Web Committee, Youth Ministry Council, RCIA, Parish Council (General), Eucharistic Ministry, Lector, Bulletin Committee, Hospitality, Arts and Entertainment, Youth Retreat, and more…
Perhaps, if you all checked out OUR articles and FACTS instead of simply spending your time looking for ways to incite you would realize that your answers are in our presentations posted on the site.
Answer this: are you OK with spending $250000.00 of the $350000.00 sale of St. Vincent's proceeds on "new property acquisitions" around St. Mary's?? This is a line item on the Parish Facilities Report. Have you even analyzed it? Prove our position wrong with FACTS.
Kathy