A heartwarming story of how faith, centered around St. Vincent's church, survives the worst of calamities.
St. Vincent's and the Flood
From the story: I do not even know who the artist was for this simple depiction of St. Vincent's, but it was sketched and placed on make shift bulletins following the flood and it also became a symbol of our parish strength and survival. We all knew and know the value of St. Vincent's and I pray for her survival, just as we all joined together during the flood and prayed for our individual and collective survival.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteWhat a beautiful reflection. Thank you for sharing it with us. The emotion and FAITH that you poured into it help sustain me (and others, I'm sure) as we work to preserve St. Vincent de Paul Church.
Since I am the first to post on this thread may I also prepare you for the "anonymous" comments that may follow -- some thanking you, and some criticizing you, or Gretchen for posting this...tugging on the emotions. Do not worry about the "negativity," for God knows what is in your heart.
Thank you again for sharing it, thanks to the Holy Spirit for "guiding your pen," and thanks be to God for giving you the strength to persevere in the work to save SVdP Church.
Great essay! I remember Father Hogan telling us these stories when I attended St. Vincent's school.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing Tom. It is obvious that you are attached to the things and people who helped form your faith. This is all good. The bad thing is that we can't afford to keep the Church that you love so much. Wish we could but the numbers speak for themselves. We've lost revenue, we've lost parishioners. Sad times for the parish and the community.
ReplyDeleteThe flood waters failed to destroy the spirit of Saint Vincent's, I'll be darned if current leadership will. Pray, pray, pray.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you folks can make a scrap book with Saint Vincents memories and pictures. We can find a special place to display it up at Saint Mary's.
ReplyDeleteWhich numbers are you speaking of?
ReplyDelete6:26 I'm almost sure that you have won the most heartless comment to make it on here award. I understand why you don't sign your name. Either way in my book you won it. God Bless you.
ReplyDeleteCarol
Maybe to appease both sides of this mess, both churches should be sold and a new one built on neutral ground, taking items from each church to blend into unity.
ReplyDeleteI'm up for that, 7:32, except who would every buy St. Mary's? And where would we get the money for a new church to fulfill our needs?
ReplyDeleteAnd Carol, 6:26's comments are hardly heartless, in fact, they make a lot of sense!! If you are going to give out "heartless" comment awards, there are far better ones to choose from amongst the blog....
What numbers are required to make a Parish viable? What income is necessary to save St.Vincent de Paul Church? What happens if the Catholc Community and income continue to decrease and the expense continue to rise? Does this mean that all Catholic Churches in the area will go away? What is being done to rebuild the Corning Catholic Church both physically and spiritually? I guess my thought is that we could not have been much lower than we were in 1972 and somehow we rebouded, we came back. Can't we have the opportunity to do it again, under these far less severe circumstances? No one had money, insurance or homes in 1972 and yet we all came back ... together. We all survived. We all worked together. I have never seen such negativity as I do with "All Saints Parish", perhaps that is what is hurting the process. We were a proud, diverse and unique Parish when we were St. Vincent's Parish. All the community churches were stronger; our smaller churches were more viable and stronger. We had an identiifable membership and pride in what we had built and a desire to preserve it. The larger church has become more diluted and weaker and is losing its membership and is apparently straying from the faith and practices that once made us so strong. No one likes to give money if they cannot see where it is going or what it is being used for. I cannot help, but feel if we were not pronounced dead and were instead given a goal and a clear understanding of where the money we donated would go to, we would have a very succesful return on such an investment. I know I am willing and so are others I am sure to offer time, money and our sweat to save St. Vincent's. It appears we are being told that our loved one is going to die and we should trust the surgeon who has said there is nothing he can do for this patient and expected the patient to die all along and even when he started his treatment ... but don't worry trust him, he will save the next patient and nurse that patient back to health and we can grow to love that patient as much as the one he initially lost.
ReplyDeleteGreat idea..call it St. MarVins!
ReplyDeleteGretchen- The number of dollars in the collection basket, the number of lost parishioners, the number of people on staff. Hey, I'm on your side but if things remain un changed, we can't afford to keep our Churches open.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 3:05; I know this time in the evening is beyond the normal workday hours but we're all still waiting on those numbers you speak of. The church that Tom speaks of is actually the one we CAN afford to keep and that is EXACTLY what the numbers are saying! The St. Vincents campus is the only INCOME producing property in the parish. Maybe someone should start checking on the 'lost revenue'you speak of; I think it may have been misplaced.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of 7:32 said..."Maybe to appease both sides of this mess, both churches should be sold and a new one built on neutral ground, taking items from each church to blend into unity."
ReplyDeleteYou just don't get it do you. We don't want either church sold and No, we do not believe it is necessary. There is so much that could be tried before anymore churches are sold and/or torn down.
Anonymous 8:46 -- We are told that collections remain stable...despite the loss of some parishioners to other parishes and denominations, or to no church at all.
ReplyDeleteI suggest asking your Protestant friends what their church budgets look like...Most that I talk to are quite envious when they hear our numbers and income, and think that we've lost our heads to even contemplate the selling off of our churches.
And I am guessing by staff that you mean we have too many?
A few years from now, if SV and IHM are gone, there will be SM, a church in need of major repairs. Those repairs have been deferred on purpose and are continuing to be deferred.
The financials from leadership show an upcoming deficit of around $200,000 per year, with no funds for capital repairs.
Now those are numbers that beg the question of SM's future, and the future of ASP.
Yes Gretchen- we have too many people on staff. I once worked for a church that was a tad bit larger with 1/2 as many full-time employees and twice as many active programs. If we can't cut and get by, then we need new staff members who can delegate better to responsible volunteers.
ReplyDeleteI agree. A good solution is to hire part-time employees and provide no benefits. This is what some churches do. The savings would be about 40% and you would still be able to offer good programs, with good staff members.
ReplyDeleteChris
Chris- Let's just get rid of everybody with any experience in the parish. We'll have a job fair and see who we can get to fill the positions that offer no benefits. You can't be serious.
ReplyDeleteYeah, like those with experience have benefited the parish so much. Running with experience we are selling 3 out of 4 churches, ministries suffering terribly, awful management of resources. With experience like we have, why worry about experience at all?
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you walk into the door at 222 Dodge and shadow staff for a week. Bet you wouldn't take any of their jobs for what their meager salaries are.
ReplyDeleteAnd how would you know their salaries are meager?
ReplyDeleteBecause the SOP posted the average salary of 37K on this site. How would THEY know?
ReplyDeleteIts pretty obvious who wrote at 6:51. Must be a staff member or they wouldn't know the salary. Guess we SOP do have their attention. Hope they are a little scared of the outcome of all this.
ReplyDeleteIt is quite easy to get an average of employee salaries from financials provided by the administration...take the latest figures for salaries and divide by number of employees. I think it comes out to $38,000 or so as an average.
ReplyDeleteMeager salaries? Who's forcing you all to stay?Why not donate your time and let your salaries help out the "master plan".
ReplyDeleteCivility, please; otherwise I will have to begin deleting comments.
ReplyDeletePeople stay in ministry because they feel "called" to ministry. It's not about a big, fat paycheck, it's about serving God and his people. Unfortunately, some people don't get this.
ReplyDelete$38,000 is not a bad salary for a church employee. Most people I know who go into ministry don't do it for the money. Factor into this the 2 maintainance people, who would be making much less, so the average business/ministry position is over $40,000. Not bad. One of these people making over $40,000 works in the business dept. and has little-to-no education. Not bad. I think there is at least one more person on staff with no education, the new youth minister. So, I'm not sure that anybody should complain about salaries and firmly believe that the parish needs to cut 2-3 staff and turn to volunteers. When times are tough, tough decisions are required. Personally, I don't think Dean will lay-off any more of the current staff- the wall around him will weaken if the faithful followers are removed.
ReplyDeleteChris
Sorry, Gretchen. I guess I still find it hard to believe that valuable staff were let go when they were only making meager salaries. How did that benefit the parish finances and just where is it being spent now?
ReplyDeleteI love how any time anyone posts a comment that's contrary to SOP's official position, they are accused of being a parish staff member.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who pays attention to both, this is so remarkably similar to the C-PP school district's facilities battle.
Congratulations SOP, you've become Sylvia Huber and Tom O'Brien.
Except one's salvation is not at risk with the school plan...and the Lord does not dwell physically in the school buildings.
ReplyDeleteHey 10:35, if your going to start spouting people's names off with negative connotation, don't you think you should sign your own name?or is it easier to do that without your name attached?
ReplyDeleteCarol
You think your salvation is at risk if you go to St. Vincents vs. St. Mary's? Or one of the fine Protestant churches within walking distance of St. Vincent's? Or don't go to church at all? What a narrow understanding of God you must have. No wonder you put so much importance in brick and mortar.
ReplyDeletePiggy-backing onto what Gretchen said at 12:16 PM,
ReplyDeleteAnd, people within the school district limits are allowed to "vote" for or against the school district facilities plan.
Regarding salaries...are we sure that average of 38-40K doesn't include benefits...which would make it lower. But, agreeing with Anonymous of 7:42 AM, when you work in ministry you never do it for the money, because a church can never pay you what you are really worth...it truly is a calling and an honor to work in ministry. The salary is never very good, but as we used to say, the "retirement plan is out of this world." :)
10:35- Many are predicting that Mr. O'Brien will once again prove that the district is violating state law in their new financing plan. So, maybe becoming like Mr. O'Brien and bringing the truth to light is not such a bad thing after all. From what I have read, the SOP folks are attempting to do the same. If the truth is damaging, it demands to be exposed.
ReplyDeleteChris
Mary: You were correct. I am saddened and shocked by what I am reading. There is so much hatred, lack of faith and clear anti-Catholic and anti-Christian sentiment and rhetoric in so much of what I am reading in these blogs and in particular in relation to my writing about St.Vincent's and its impact upon us during the flood. How can anyone who has seen God's beauty, exemplified in St. Vincent's church be so cruel to their fellow man? The true beauty and purpose of St.Vincent de Paul Church is being lost in this petty bickering and some of the hateful messages being sent. Perhaps I do not know as much as others, but surely I can express my love and appreciation of this beautiful church and of my faith and what St. Vincent's means to me and others without inciting such negative and hateful reactions from fellow "Christians" regardless of their faith choices. I was always told to see Christ in all I speak to and see. Would any of us be talking to our Lord in this fashion?
ReplyDeleteMary- 37 to 40K does not include benefits.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 1:37 -- I did not imply that one's salvation was in jeopardy between attending SV or Sm...it can be in jeopardy if actions of leadership cause the faithful to lose faith, or to leave the Church.
ReplyDeleteGREAT JOB ON THE EDITORIAL WARREN.....
ReplyDeleteI wonder if those who are causing people to abandon their faith or to lose confidence in the Church have any concern about their own salvation. I shutter to consider the loss of mine through my actions and would hope that they also contemplate the consequences to their actions.
ReplyDeleteI find that people love to put God in a box, and it seems the more devout they are, the smaller the box is that they put God in.
ReplyDeleteSo what if people leave the church? There are many other perfectly good denominations out there to cater to people's spiritual needs. Are you one of those who believes that every non-Catholic is going to hell? If so, show me the scripture that says that.
I don't think God meant us to spend our lives in church. Churches are meant to be a place of learning and a place to recharge our spiritual battery. Just as children are weaned from their mother's milk, we as followers of Christ need to be weaned off our dependence on churches. Let the world be your church and who ever is around you to be your congregation.
Or is your god too small for that?
Warren Very well said in todays Corning Leader.
ReplyDeleteLet us pray that it does not fall on deaf ears!
Thank you so much.
10:16
ReplyDeleteFor the love of God, I hope you are not Catholic.
When you minimize the necessity for our Church, Jesus Christ becomes homeless. His physical home is in our Catholic Churches. The door to the tabernacle is the door to his heart. Jesus Christ founded ONE Church, historically it is the Roman Catholic Church. I love my Protestant brothers and sisters but they are practicing their faith in religions that have rebelled against the one true Church of Christ. I pray for their reconciliation. They are good and holy people but they are missing the greatest gift that our Lord meant for us to receive- Himself in the Blessed Sacrament. I refuse to be weaned from my Church building, for it is there, in the presence of our Lord and in the partaking of His body and blood, that my spiritual battery is recharged.
And, oh yea, my God is so big that He chose to come to me hidden in the most humble form of bread and wine. My God is an AWESOME God!
Nope, 11:18, I quit being Catholic long ago. Religions divide people. Faith unites people. I am above denominational labels. I am a Christian, a follower of Christ. That's the only label I need.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry your God is so small he can only dwell in Catholic churches. I see God everywhere. You apparently only see him in certain buildings between the hours of 8 a.m. and noon on Sundays.
10:16,
ReplyDeleteCan we please leave off the denominational bickering. If you are truly interested in the Catholic teaching on salvation, you can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church online. Just do a google search. It explains things very well.
11:16, 11:24 -- you don't happen to be Fran P., are you? That would explain a lot.
ReplyDeleteNope. Guess again, Gretchen.
ReplyDeleteAnd isn't the "denominational bickering" as you call it, speak to the larger point behind SOP? What should be the role and purpose of church buildings in one's walk with the Lord.
You seem to think they are very important. I say otherwise.
I hope that everyone in and around the surrounding area of St. Vincents Church understands exactly what is happening. Read todays letter to the editor written by Warren Blackwell. I have never met Mr. Blackwell but he seems to be very well informed about what is happening. After the Dec.16th school facilities vote it is possible that this area will have 2 subsidized housing complexes within one block. What will that do to our property values and our neighborhoods. I do not belong to St. Vincents Church but I like my neighborhood just the way it is. There is no reason to have these next to one another. It is time to contact our city representatives and councilman and let our voices be heard. Stay informed people!
ReplyDeleteWhen all else fails, use fear. I'm sure Jesus wouldn't have wanted housing for the poor anywhere near His presence. If I read the Bible correctly, Jesus' teachings were all about half empty church buildings. I don't remember Jesus ever saying anything about being kind to the poor.
ReplyDeleteOh, wait a minute. In the Sermon on the Mount, didn't Jesus say, "Blessed be the poor, as long as I don't have to see them or live by them."
The larger point, as you put it anonymous 12:46, is contextually about a certain Catholic parish, in a certain geographical area, dealing with certain issues that affect their parish and community life.
ReplyDeleteYou may want to make it something other than that for purposes I cannot divine, but that's not going to happen. Sorry. I'd be happy to point you to numerous other websites that would gladly discuss those wider themes with you. Feel free to email us at admin@savingourparish.com for a list.
Anonymous 1:32 p.m. -- we already have subsidized housing on the north side of Corning. The poor are always with us, as Jesus said. We aren't living in a Star Trek utopia.
ReplyDeleteI think most of us here know and love old people, young people, poor people, rich people, disabled people and every other kind of people. Most of my neighbors on the north side give plenty of their time, talent, and treasure to helping the poor and disadvantaged. Apparently it is not enough to suit your sensibilities of what is appropriate and acceptable.
Using your progressive 'logic' all of us on the north side should sell our homes, convert them into housing for the poor and then go find other neighborhoods where we can start the cycle over again.
I assume you are ready and willing to do the same.
Sorry Gretchen, but I'm using my house. Apparently not enough people are using St. Vincent's church or we wouldn't be debating the sale of it. The collection baskets would be full to overflowing, as would the pews every Sunday.
ReplyDeleteYou do love introducing straw men into the argument, don't you Gretchen?
11:24 You are correct in that religions do divide- could this be why our Lord founded one Church? I am sorry that you have left the Catholic Church and will pray, most often and most sincerely, for your return. We need you, the Church needs you, even if you don't agree. I am sorry also that you don't have a full comprehension of the true presence of Christ in the tabernacle, 24 hours a day. This presence is different than the one you make reference to. Jesus is everywhere, as you state, but not in the same form everywhere.
ReplyDeleteChris
Gretchen- Is there a way to scan and post Warren Blackwell's editorial? It was superb. Warren is a long-standing, well-respected parishioner and community member. One of our finest. I hope parish leadership will read and reread. They should not dismiss Warren as a radical, nay-saying SOP'er. They should take his words to heart.
ReplyDeleteAnn
Well, Chris, since I'm divorced and remarried, I'm not really welcome back in the Catholic church.
ReplyDeleteI know, I can always attend church, but not take part in the Eucharist (or any of the sacraments.)
I choose not to be a member of a church that considers me a second-class citizen.
As for experiencing Jesus' presence, I guess I just feel like you can feel Jesus' presence anywhere if you are looking for it. Where two or three are gathered in my name....
And 2:19, you do love to agitate on the boards, don't you? It's just a fun way to pass an afternoon. And the same stories are rolled out - there's not enough money. Anyone who still believes that hasn't looked at the numbers or heard that parish leadership will not permit fund-raising to save St. Vincent's.
ReplyDeleteTom...I too am saddened by the downward spiral that the blog sometimes takes. Something I stated to you earlier bears repeating...
ReplyDelete"Do not worry about the "negativity," for God knows what is in your heart."
He knows what is in everyone's heart...and the intent behind their posts (good and bad). Keep up with the Crusade, Tom...and keep the faith, for great will be your reward!
4:49 You are wrong! You are so welcome in the Catholic Church and as a first class citizen. Please know this. Find a good priest and share your story. The Church provides the annulment process and you may be able to resolve any issues that prohibit you from receiving the Eucharist. The Church is full of imperfect people, none so great as I. It would be a blessing to have you back. Please, please pray about this and know that we need you to help build up the body of Christ.
ReplyDeleteChris
4:49 True, we can feel the presense of our Lord in many experiences, throughout our day. But, when you can come into the Church and sit in His presence, it really is a profound and powerful experience. To be so close.
ReplyDeleteChris
4:49 Come back to your faith. It takes courage but I did it and I was accepted and I finally feel whole again. I have a lot of baggage but it feels better when the church and the people are there to help me carry it.
ReplyDelete