Is it a usual and normal thing to have a deacon do virtually everything at mass, except the consecration? Yesterday, at the 9:30 mass, I noticed that the deacon--as is often the case in our parish--presided at virtually all aspects of the mass except for the actual consecration.
I ask this because it seems as if there is a purposeful de-emphasis of the priest's role. Instead of presiding at the mass, it is as if the priest is merely assisting and not vice versa. In fact, I don't think the welcome included the usual announcement of who our presider would be.
I remember when we first came to All Saints Parish four years ago we thought the deacon was a priest. We're not the only ones who have made that mistake, either.
If the priest's role in the liturgy is so altered, doesn't that cross over to a sense of diminishing of the Eucharist, too? Doesn't minimizing the priest's role as an active presence in the mass put him, in persona Christi, somewhere in the background, of secondary importance? And isn't that same as putting Christ Jesus in the background?
Gretchen- What you describe has been the norm since the current Pastoral Administrator arrived. "Priest wanna be's" running rampant. Our good priests sit in their chair like a potted plant as their position is minimized by the over-active and self-gratifying role of the deacon, who wants to present himself as the focus of the mass. One time he stated that he wished the tabernacle could be removed from the Church because it was a "distraction".
ReplyDeleteIf attending mass in this parish causes so much concern, why don't you leave?
ReplyDeleteNo reasoned response to my questions, anonymous 12:47?
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you talk to our priest(s)? You might learn that they welcome the assistance at mass.
ReplyDelete12:47pm
Our good, holy and obedient priest is not going to challenge the power-hungry Pastoral Administrator, so there is no need to "talk to our priests". Father Billotte was cut from a different mold;he refused to be undermined. He chose to leave. Who can blame him?
ReplyDeleteExcuse the snark, but if there was any more 'assistance' on Sunday, the priest need hardly have been present.
ReplyDeleteI believe I asked some legitimate questions and pointed out a possible issue regarding the role of those who are called and ordained to be in persona Christi and those who are not. Again, 12:47, you have not ventured to address my point that when the priest's role is minimized during mass, it may lead to a similar sense of minimizing the Eucharist. I cannot imagine that is an acceptable formula for Catholic worship.
There is nothing out of the norm about the way the priest and deacon preside at mass. We aren't breaking any liturgical laws, they're just doing what deacons are supposed to do. Its that simple. There is a role specifically for deacons at mass. Why do you feel the need to stir the pot like this, Gretchen? What are you hoping to achieve by creating a post like this, other than just to rally complainers? My observation of your "observations" seem to indicate a particular agenda...
ReplyDeleteRemember, folks, we live in Corning, not in Rochester--the only priests we've had in the past decade have been temporary pastors, and old priests off on the road of retirement. Just wait until we get assigned a lay woman to be our Pastoral Administrator...I wonder what your reactions will all be then...
I apologize, but I am just asking a few questions. Was there something disrespectful in my observations? How is that 'stirring the pot'?
ReplyDeleteAgain, if 12:47 would simply address the questions instead of attacking, it might help readers to understand better.
Not having lived here for the last decade, I cannot speak to the comment that our parish has had only "temporary pastors, and old priests off on the road of retirement."
My first interaction with a priest was Fr. Billotte, who came to our house to bless it even though he didn't know us from Adam, and who reconciled my husband to the Church. I would be ashamed to refer to him as an "old priest off on the road of retirement."
3:14- Sounds like you are on staff. If "stirring the pot" translates into bringing the truth to light, give me a spoon. We are tired of arrogant leadership. We are tired of our PA flexing his muscles, just because he can. I have attended masses in many other parishes, where a Deacon is presiding with a priest but never, ever have experienced the boldness and lack of respect for the Priesthood that we are witnessing at All Saints.
ReplyDelete"Remember, folks, we live in Corning, not in Rochester--the only priests we've had in the past decade have been temporary pastors, and old priests off on the road of retirement. Just wait until we get assigned a lay woman to be our Pastoral Administrator...I wonder what your reactions will all be then..."
ReplyDeleteA lay woman with strong leadership skills and a passion for promoting the Catholic faith would be a welcome relief.
Gretchen--You are implying that there is intentional de-emphasis on Eucharist, even though deacons are just doing their job (and they're not there every Sunday, so they do offer some variety). Can't deacons preach on topics like the Eucharist? Therefore, my answer to all of your original questions would be NO. Deacons are a part of any normal mass. Surely you must be aware of this.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if I am the only one who, sadly I must say, thinks that you are just LOOKING for something to complain about. I am sorry if that offends you, but it is the truth.
4:06 I echo your observation. A staff member frequently refers to us as "folks" in his bulletin articles.
ReplyDeleteMy first encounter with the "leader" was before a Mass at St. Mary's. I didn't know we even had a new deacon yet. As he came down the side aisle shaking hands,in his priest's robe and COLLAR, I reached out and shook his hand and said "good morning Father", to which he didn't correct me but kept on walking. Arrogant priest wannabe, definitely. Now we have two of them parading around. Notice I don't include Deacon Jim among them.
ReplyDeleteTo 4:12: "Deacons are a part of any normal mass." So are the Priests- but at Sunday's 9:30 mass, the Deacon got top billing. If you were there, surely you would be aware of this.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you people want our deacons to do differently??? If you notice the deacon more at mass its probably because they have generally a more out-going personality. I appreciate that more than a priest or deacon that act like a robots and who seem unrelatable to the average parishioner.
ReplyDelete4:55 In case you haven't noticed, the Priest rarely gets top billing. You are right Gretchen, I was at the mass you refer to and my husband and I made the same observation- too much deacon, not enough Priest.
ReplyDelete5:15 What do you people want our deacons to do differently???
ReplyDeleteHumility, humility, humility. And how about some humility?
And what does humility look like to you?
ReplyDeleteHumility doesn't have a look, it has a presence. Have you never been in the presence of a humble person?
ReplyDeleteI prefer my priests and deacons to preside with confidence in their reading, preaching, and praying. I guess some people interpret dynamic enthusiasm as arrogance. I guess we just have different tastes.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think Fr. Lew really enjoys having the deacons and especially Trish around. That's clearly evident. They make a really funny pair.
I think some people on here care more about these things than the priests actually do!
I guess I struck a nerve. I never implied that there was an intentional de-emphasis of the Eucharist. I asked whether it was possible that could happen, given the circumstances. Is that a possibility? If so, why is it verboten to speak about it?
ReplyDeleteAnd I certainly do believe that a deacon can and should preach about the Eucharist.
My observation of Sunday's 9:30 mass was that the deacon was more of a presence than the priest--the individual who is in persona Christi. Is that an untrue statement?
Is it true there was no mention of who was the presider? If so, why not? Was it an oversight? It's just good manners to introduce the presider and homilist, right?
It seems to me that there are some here who do not want to dialog, for some reason.
Confidence yes, but still humility before the Lord and his holy sacrifice in the Eucharist. Mass is not supposed to be a comedy routine, nor is it supposed to be focused on individuals. This is not a question about taste this is what Holy Mother Church requires. It is also what our Pope asks for.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with you anonymous, you're right the priests don't seem to care about these things, and they should. Again, this isn't about personal preference it is what the Church requires.
Not my words, but a papal clarification of 2009 which does establish the distinction in role of priest and deacon and liturgy vesus Eucharist:
ReplyDeleteJesuit Father Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, said the changed language on deacons more clearly reflects the doctrinal position of the church, especially the teaching of the Second Vatican Council regarding the permanent diaconate.
The current Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1984, spoke of three grades of the sacrament of orders -- the episcopate, the presbyterate and the diaconate -- by which ministers fulfill "the functions of teaching, sanctifying and governing," each according to his grade.
The new wording introduced by Pope Benedict mirrors the explanation of the roles of the church's ordained ministers presented in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which says that the task of governing on behalf of Christ, the head of the church, is proper only to bishops and priests.
The new version adds the phrase: "Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and faculty to act in the person of Christ the head, while deacons are enabled to serve the people of God in the diaconate of the liturgy, the word and charity."
The first issue addressed by the Motu Propio is the role of the diaconate.
Part of the current canon “describes sacred orders as participating in the headship of Christ,” Flynn explained. “The Motu Proprio clarifies that priests and bishops participate in the headship of Christ ‘in persona Christi,’ whereas deacons serve the Church, the people of God, through the ministry, services, or ‘diaconias’ of liturgy, word, and charity.” Thus, Flynn said, the document emphasizes that there is a “clear distinction between the diaconate and the presbyterate.”
“The distinction is between the deacon who acts “in imago Dei” and the priest who acts ‘in persona Christi,’” Flynn explained.
What this means in layman’s terms is that “we see the diaconate as a unique ministry unto itself and not simply a step along the way to the priesthood,” he added.
Gretchen I don't know where you have been but they haven't done the announcing the presider/homilist thing in YEARS...hopefully someone will back me up on that.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 4:39, I had the very same type of meeting with the Dean. To be entirely truthful,the first several times he strutted down the aisle before mass he paid absolutely no attention to me or anyone who tried to politely say 'good morning' or acknowledge. He did wear a collar so one would assume he was a priest. Gretchen you are perfectly correct in your observation. It may very well de-emphasize the priests role. That is what "you folks and you people" on staff are hoping to accomplish. Just like "you folks and you people" on staff trying to slowly wean parishioners from St. Vincents; (one Christmas Eve Mass; and now maybe we have to rethink the saturday mass schedule....). As far as humility, I dare say there is only one deacon I know of who knows its meaning. As far as the deacon doing literally everyting during mass; maybe its the priests way of finally in some small way having them 'earn their keep.' Ever since your deacon repeatedly snubbed our family in church we attend St. Catherines. In two years I've yet to see a deacon; always a priest, homilies that actually relate to the readings and its very refreshing. I will say you must give credit where credit is due; your deacons / staff sure know how to empty the pews! I pray for St. Vincents and all those who have the courage to save her.
ReplyDeleteI've been in this parish for about three years. Is that what you mean by YEARS ago?
ReplyDeleteAgain, we've had only one Christmas Eve mass at St. Vincents for many, many years. How is this news to people?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 4:39, did you honestly believe you were deliberately snubbed? Maybe he had a lot of things on his mind or something. Did you really have an open mind to your pastoral administrator or were you just waiting for something to tick you off?
It amazes me about how people will be so sensitive to how someone looks at them or doesn't look at them that they will leave a church over it. Very sad. Why do we always prescribe bad intentions to the staff?
Dresses like a priest, acts like a priest, thinks he's a priest..when I said good morning Father he ate it up and don't think he didn't. It waw quite a whild after that incident that I found out he was only a deacon and only after others commented on the same as I did. Why do "you folks" constantly stick up for him?
ReplyDeleteI think you have decided no matter what you are not going to like Deacon Dean. I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that he would not correct you if he had heard the "Father" part of your comment. What, did he think you were not going to find out that he really was a deacon? And how long ago did this happen and you are still thinking about it? "He ate it up." What a visceral image you portray of someone you don't even know--you talk like he punched you in the face. I wonder where this animosity of yours stems from.
ReplyDeleteI attended Christmas Eve Mass this year and a couple years back and both times Deacon Dean gave the homily. Shouldn't our Priests be giving the homilies on Christmas? And at the Mass I was at this year, Deacon Dean read the gospel and Father Breen then got up to give the homily and Deacon whispered something to him and Father Breen then sat down. How sad....Then we got to hear jokes for 10 minutes. I just zoned out....
ReplyDeleteI will say that when we mistakenly called the deacon 'father' he immediately corrected us.
ReplyDelete10:16 This has been the case at every "big" mass. Our Pastoral Administrator likes the big crowds. Like someone stated, a humble man would bow to the position of the Priesthood. Somehow, somewhere along the way, he became convinced that he was a gifted preacher and will not consider otherwise.
ReplyDeleteIn the deacon's latest bulletin article he unecessarily referenced the situation in Auburn as one of the reasons we will not be getting a priest. Many of us are aware that there is a priest shortage and read about what happened in Auburn. I think someone with more respect for the priesthood probably wouldn't have referenced it.
ReplyDelete10:11- I feel the same way. Why print this? We all know that a very small percentage of our priests, no greater a percentage than our protestant pastors or our educators or most other professions, have committed horrible sexual crimes against children. I suspect that even a few Deacons have been guilty as well. There was no need to publish this. We know. We don't need a reminder. What we do need is more Priests, good and holy men of God. But I wonder how many young men sitting in the pews at All Saints will respond to the call to the Priesthood when who they see in the primary position at the Mass is the deacon. We need to elevate the Priesthood. It is no wonder that the Diocese of Rochester is ranked 2nd to last in the country in new vocations to the Priesthood- by our actions, we are not fostering vocations. I pray for new leadership- beginning with the Bishop.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to see that more and more people are recognizing that he is the focus of attention at Masses and deliberately so. I agree that he is convinced that he has the gift of preaching but is far from it. Our kids said he came to a former youth group to speak and lost their attention within a matter of seconds. It was uncomfortable for everyone. Our priests have no choice but to tolerate him. Fr. Lew isn't going to buck the system as we all are certain he knows exactly what the situation is. We are lost sheep looking to come home but the shepherd could care less.
ReplyDeleteIt is now 2011. A New Year. Sad to see that nothing has changed. Parishioners are unhappy, parish leadership is in denial. Sure is discouraging.
ReplyDeleteI have two comments: One, Starting an article about the shortage of priests using a sad,scandalous situation of one priest and expanding on the lack of priests in All Saints Parish, made me wonder if Fr. Shaw was destined to come to All Saints but we lost out because of his behavior.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I refer you to the diocese of Rochester web page,deacon program and you will find an explanation of the function of a deacon. I cannot find that a primary function is to act like two deacons do in our parish, when assisting on Sundays. In fact Deacon Dean seems way over the top in his involvement. When the bishop was here celebrating with the students, Deacon did not take over like he does normally. He acted quite within some boundaries. It seems the third deacon fulfills the function most accurately and he is humble and does not come across like a "wanna be" but cannot. Whose decision is it anyway as to how involved and overactive a deacon is at the celebration of the Eucharist. the diocesean norms do not give such latitude.The priest is "persona Dei" and the deacon the "imago dei" Can we not begin to live this way in our leadership ?
Dean determines who does what at any celebration. Have you ever been to the Easter Vigil? There is a script and assignments are made, regarding which clergy/deacons perform which duties in the ceremony. Dean has always inserted himself into the primary roles and always has the most roles. Poor Deacon Jim would be lucky if he was permitted to say one word. We quit attending this beautuful mass after witnessing this 2 years in a row. It was not about the RCIA candidates, it was about him.
ReplyDeleteDeacon Jim is a wonderful, genuine and spiritual man. God is keeping him there for a reason to be revealed one day..soon we hope. I guess the other deacon and his sidekick, in the meantime, just keep driving more and more away. Someday he'll fall off that pedestal he's placed himself on.
ReplyDelete