During the recent Dessert and Dialog with parish leadership, our administrator told us that Immaculate Heart of Mary was 'technically not up for sale' since the real estate company agreement to sell the church had expired. The large 'for sale' sign remained in place, though.
The latest bulletin, however, states that it is indeed for sale. But it also says, "...our councils are giving very careful consideration to how to provide priest housing and parish office space before we would agree to any sale."
Sigh.
What does that mean, exactly? Are the parish councils reconsidering the one worship site option? If so, shouldn't all parishioners be involved in this latest process, as mandated in diocesan guidelines?
Many of us are resigned to the fact that the "plan" is in stone and that we are comfortable as parts of other parishes in the area. Everyone is to be commended on efforts put forth but Rochester doesn't care so why should we anymore?
ReplyDeleteI agree. My family has moved on. It's much less stressful and much more spiritual when you detach yourselves from this mess.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry you have lost hope.
ReplyDeleteHaven't lost hope but can't dwell on this mess any longer.
ReplyDeleteFound hope- in a parish where the spirit is moving in a loving, compassionate, sensitive and Catholic manner. Joined the ABC parishes and have found my faith again.
ReplyDeleteThe latest bulletin also quotes seating for the churches and it is different for StVincent's than it was at the presentations. The seating is less than originally stated. Just who are we to believe around here in this supposedly Christian environment? There is no consistency other than someone has determined that they want St. Mary's to be the church of worship regardless of "family" communities formed in local churches. This one big family trying to bring others to Christ is like forcing multiple families to live together in happiness in a house that does not belong to all of them. Let's face it folks, it will not be many years after this one church at St. Mary's is said to be not appropriate to have IHM and SVdeP call themsleves St. Maryites or AllSaint's at St. Mary's so we will have to build a new church that resembles none of the others and all then have a new home, All Saints Church. It is just so sickening to see how some people can talk family, talk discipleship and the kingdom of God here on earth and obviously have no real intimate relational concept of it. I thoroughly understand why good devout Corning Catholics feel the necessity to seek worship outside this city. What a shame.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if we had a Pastor running this parish. the whole scenario might have been presented to the population as believeable. Instead it's been crammed down our throats. So did he expect it to be swallowed rather than regurgitated?
ReplyDelete1:16 pm If the parish staff would spend more time knocking on doors and seeking the lost sheep and less time developing a strategy to implement a "vision" that is 4-plus years in the making and failing miserably, we might be able to save this parish. We are no longer a family- we are a broken people, clinging on to a faith that connects us, in spite of leadership that has divided us. I am not impressed with a list of "Strategies". This Christmas, I'm asking Santa for a new...
ReplyDeletePastoral Administrator? Me, too.
ReplyDeleteI see that there is now a Communications Committee. Mentioned as close to completion are a "new website, improved bulletin, electronic communication and the like." That's nice. But the means of communication are secondary to delivering complete facts and figures in a timely manner. I truly hope that that is the mission of the committee.
ReplyDeleteThere has been a communications committee for some time. I was on it for awhile in 2008. I think it was the 'Bulletin Committee' when I was on it. I know that there are some really good people on the committee. Not all the good people have left yet.
ReplyDeleteI'd find it hard to believe that all pastoral administrators are as arrogant and power hungry as the one we have. How come we got stuck with this guy? Rochester knew his history with the previous parish and yet they passed him on anyway. Guess we need to push for a pastor who cares.
ReplyDeleteIf the communication continues to be filtered through and censored by the Pastoral Administrator, there is little interest. His desire to control superceeds his desire to pastor.
ReplyDeleteCarol
We need to pray for leaders who are Christ-centered, people who understand that the Catholic Church is a sacramental Church focused on salvation of souls. Christ came to save us from eternal damnation.
ReplyDeleteInstead of imbibing the secular, corporate methodology of running a business, we should look at how Christ Jesus furthered His kingdom. He discerned the heart of His people. "Where the heart, there is your treasure."
Is your heart in serving God's people? Is it in helping your neighbor when they are in trouble? Is it in going out of your way to bind up wounds? Is it in caring for the broken-hearted, the sick, the sinner?
Or is it in corporate-speak? Is it in feeling good or doing good?
When I first moved here, the people I met in All Saints Parish, did good. We were one parish. We didn't worry about where we sat and received sacrament. There were no agendas. There was so strategic plan. There was only the desire to love our neighbor and worship together.
There was not a focus on money. The focus was on the serving the people. I felt it. It brought me into the Church.
As my mother-in-law, a devout Catholic who prayed me into her family said, "We may be down, but we're not out."
Please, I beg you, pray for our parish, for our people. Light a candle for this parish, for all that has been, and all that can be.
The decay comes from the top. Until it is removed, it will eat away anything that stands in the way. Pray for a Christmas miracle, through the intercession of the Infant Christ.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see a priest pastor at the helm of our "parish" for I believe his extensive education in the faith and particularly the Catholic Faith would give those of us seeking the deep relationship with Christ that enables us to care for the least among us,- would give us the theological context and spiritual awareness of the importance of the SACRAMENTS in our lives. It seems to me more than anything esle, that it is Christ giving Himself to us in Eucharist, communion with Him, in a special way, that helps us in the relationship with Christ we need if we are going to be the "disciples" so emphasized in ASP literature.
ReplyDeleteThis is definitely an issue for the Rochester diocese. See http://cleansingfiredor.com - a blog that focuses on the Rochester area. A post regarding Rush Henrietta documents declining attendance under pastoral admins.
ReplyDeleteTo the tune of I'll be home for Christmas
ReplyDeleteI'll be home for Christmas
You can count on me...
Please leave the deacon behind and a
Real pastor under the tree.
Christmas Eve will find me where my family has been for years;
Send deacon on sabatical for Christmas
If only in my dreams.
Ouch....you're a sly one, Mr. Grinch! Speaking of sabatical, have we heard if one is forthcoming?
ReplyDeleteI heard we lost 300 families in the last ten years. Where did they go? There has been administrators here at All Saints in that time, right?
ReplyDeleteCan we try to keep things in the spirit of Christmas? Thank you.
ReplyDeleteBah hum bug to those who are destroying our parish, without one ounce of guilt or remorse.
ReplyDeleteI want to wish everyone in the parish a very Merry Christmas. Also hoping and praying that 2011 will be a good year and that God answers our prayers and let St Vincent's be here next Christmas.
ReplyDeleteAmen, Jean!
ReplyDeleteI think we all pray for All Saints. Many of us pray at Addison or Campbell where there are no distractions that keep us from being close to God. It's not a spectacle-no lights, no cameras, no distractions from the altar. The homilies are genuine and without personal agendas. We feel good when Mass is over and there's nothing wrong with that. We are still Catholics and that's what is important.
ReplyDeleteThe Christmas time is a good time for healing and forgiving. This process does not require that we return to the parish. For some of us, the healing began when we left and the forgiveness to those who drove us away will be through the grace of God. Merry Christmas to all.
ReplyDeleteNobody drove you away. You chose to leave-quit blaming others for your decision.
ReplyDelete8:41pm- You're wrong. The leadership has driven hundreds away through selfish, self-serving, self gratifying, self- promoting, self-centered and self-minded decisions and actions. MySELF in cluded. Gone and relieved to be freed of the self-destruction of All Saints parish.
ReplyDeleteI agree. The leader of this parish should hang his head in shame because this whole mess is about his need for some kind of recognition. He has dragged hundreds of people through the mud. Don't blame the people who are worshipping elsewhere when in fact you don't know how to walk away yourself!
ReplyDeleteIf your so freed and relieved, why are you bothering to add your comments on this blog? Move on, like you claim you have. We're carrying on just fine.
ReplyDeleteI am saddened to see responses to the effect of: Who cares if people leave? We don't care.
ReplyDeleteEveryone should care. On a practical level, All Saints is losing the talents and money of many people. On a spiritual/community level, All Saints is becoming a group of a few instead of a spiritual home of many. We are supposed to be inclusive. We are supposed to care for others, especially those who are struggling in any number of ways. If we are not open to that, then we are wasting our time attending mass.
Can you guys stop the bickering. Some people have chosen to worship elsewhere -- some have chosen to stay. I understand why some have left (although, I pray its only a temporary absence) and since I have chosen to stay, I understand why I and others are "sticking it out." My mother used to say when there was bickering amongst my siblings and I..."peace be to this household." So, borrowing her phrase...peace be to this blog! If someone wants to vent, within reason, let them do it -- stop attacking eachother.
ReplyDeleteYou people who complain and criticize every move from leadership will be whining in Campbell and Addison at some point. Why? Because someone will cross you, make a decision that ticks you off and then where will you run to? In our Church everyone cannot have their way. We have a chain of command, no different than at DR or Corning Inc. I would suggest that you consider the idea of submission to those in authority, even if you have a personal vengence against them.
ReplyDelete2:16 : If the lost sheep are happy elsewhere and feel that their spiritual needs are being met, why should All Saints parish track them down? I would rather spend my time and energy ministering to those who are here, worshipping with us and supporting us. Life goes on, if our Church is smaller, so be it. It may be a happier environment for worship and service. I wish all those who have left well but will not lose sleep over them.
ReplyDeleteHere's a proposal: why not listen to parishioners and implement some small changes? For example, have a low mass on both Saturday and Sunday with no music. Many people, myself included, are terrible singers. We also seek some quiet time, especially during communion. The people who love the music will still have other masses with the singing. It seems like a simple fix, but I know of people who have asked for less music and been answered with silence.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, not everyone who left All Saints is attending another church. Some have lost their faith community. And if you don't mind that your church is smaller, prepare to open your wallets further. St. Mary's needs serious repairs and the sale of other churches will not cover it.
You've shown your true colors-if you swallow what I say we'll get along and to heck with the rest of you. Makes me sick!
ReplyDelete6:56 I beg to differ but those who have left have shown their true colors. When the going gets tough and when you don't have your way, you leave. I have a sister who lives by this same philosophy- haven't seen her in 17 years. Heard she's still complaining about her "disfunctional family", just like you people who continue to bash your imperfect church and leaders. Maybe you have the bar too high- perfection is reserved for Jesus Christ, don't know why you think every other church leader should be the same. So don't expect church leadership to come looking for you- I don't blame him one bit, who wants to deal with people who cause contempt and create division.
ReplyDeleteTo 8:49 am Jesus did not shy away from those who created division and contempt. He reached out to them and then let them have the freedom to choose. It saddens me to see the church compared in action,to working at Corning INC or DR. I know it is easy to do now days given how all programs and membership and actions seem to be based on the bottom line, the almighty dollar and profit but ... Can not the Church rise abouve that and begin to share and trust that the people do have a brain and creative ideas for maintaining the community and church buildings? Community does not function like a factory or business unit. Then again within the business units there is sometimes more community than found in the church. How very sad. I do not think it helpful to pass judgemnt on motives or actions past, present, or future, of those who stay or leave ASP or speak for the admisistrator or any other member of the administration. Let them speak for themselves...in word and action.
ReplyDeleteUm...I just proposed small changes. Which is what healthy organizations and businesses do to attract and keep members/employees. They also realize that no one person or group has all the answers. And part of having a leadership role is reaching out.
ReplyDeleteSusan, I agree with you. My comments were directed to the blog that compared the church with a chain of command like that of Corning and DR. I thought the church is really We the people...which according to Vat.II meant that we the people help and influence the direction of the church. As you say those sitting in the pews have something to contribute beyond financial help.Leadership is more than just an admin team or Board of Directors. I agree that small incremental changes can help maybe to start to restore trust but these changes must involve others as well as the present decision makers. We need leadership like you say not a Director or Manager. There is a clear distinction in these roles in the curriculum and studies for those seeking a MBA.
ReplyDeleteSusan, it's a one man show. He holds the strings and at the ends of them are his puppets who dare not act without his scripts. He knows exactly what he's doing. Until he's gone, nothing is going to change. Until the return of a Pastor, we have to wait it out. They question why we are reading the blog after leaving when in fact they should be asking themselves why they are when, as we all know, everything is not "carrying on just fine".
ReplyDeleteOld staff members are not coming back, is what is this vague "change" you all want? (not including the sale of St. Vincents--because that would most likely continue no matter who was in charge)
ReplyDelete3:32- He is a dictator. I cannot think of one single person who has been able to convince him to change his direction on any situation. He sits there, with a "deer in the headlight" look, and, sometimes you think you might be making progress, but, in the end, you have wasted your breath; he never hears anything that is contrary to what he is thinking. It's rather scary.
ReplyDelete4:04- As much as we miss the old staff members you make reference to and as much as we all witness the continued deterioration of the programs they led, we wouldn't want any of them to return to staff. They all deserve much better. Who would chose to work in the current environment and under the current leader?
ReplyDeleteCan we PLEASE begin the New Year without discussing the old staff members? Gone. Never coming back. Get over it. Time to move on. And contrary to what some would like to believe, we are recovering nicely. Numbers are great in the youth programs (almost 100 kids registered and a big retreat in 2 weeks), we have a nice RCIA group and Mary Ann is doing a good job with the children's program. So, there is life after......
ReplyDeleteSo everything is progressing nicely huh? Why is it All Saints will not disclose June 30, 2010 financials on their website? That was 6 months ago?!? As a former parish finance chairman I know the Diocese requires each parish's numbers long ago. So if things are improving so well why no communication re; financial results? I can think of two answers: 1.) ASP administration is hiding something either financial irregularities or how well the parish is actually doing in direct opposition to the "plan narrative" or 2.) the parish administration is just incompetent. Take your pick.
ReplyDeleteOne has to wonder about the credibility of the planning which was done.
St. Vinnies '69
Almost 100 kids registered? This is very misleading. Check to see how many are attending and don't include the kids who are forced to attend if they want to be confirmed. Also, how many teens are attending the "big retreat"? 100? Maybe more? I am tired of people on staff acting like things are going good, when everybody knows different. We have eyes and we have ears. Let's call it like it is.
ReplyDelete11:48 am- I pick option number 2
ReplyDelete12:27 PM- What exactly would you like the staff to do? Mope around at the problems they are facing and publicly complain about it? They are just being professional, and I for one commend their Christian spirit and positive attitude and consistently kind demeanor. That's what I want in church leaders. Just because you're unhappy, don't expect the rest of the world to follow suit. Again, everyone here seems to complain but no specific solutions. And I wonder if anyone will ever answer 4:04 PM's question.
ReplyDeleteLet's make a New Years resolution to drop the youth ministry blog comments. It does nothing to help the struggles of the current program. We all know most kids aren't going, we all know why but it doesn't change anything to keep bringing it up. Let's focus on areas where we can bring about change.
ReplyDeleteQuestion....isn't the time line for the proposal for buying St. Vincent's by Providence House up??? Thought there was a deadline and if not met it would fall through??? Has our administrator heard from PH or the Bishop on the proposed sale and not telling us??? Is he waiting til he leaves on sabbatical to drop the ball and head for the hills....
ReplyDeleteWhy answer a dumb question? People want a change in leadership, a change in attitude, a change in how staff relates to parishioners, a change in how the parish is run. It has been said over and over and over and over. No one listens. What staff really wants is parishioners to shut up or go away. They got a lot to go away. They have not been very successful at getting others to shut up.
ReplyDeletejust one little note on the youth program, please, don't forget all that don't go to ASA had to sign up for the youth program in order to play CYO basketball, I'm guessing most who signed up for this reason probably don't attend.
ReplyDelete9:26 Our parish has always been run the same way. I hate to bring up hold things, but what, did everyone get a say about St. Patricks? Does everyone get a say about who their next Pastor, Pope, or Bishop is? The church is NOT we the people. The Pope does not take a poll of Catholics before releasing a document to decide a stance on an issue. For instance, just because there are large numbers of people that demand the church ordain women, should we blame Church leaders in Rome for not "listening" when they choose not to do so?
ReplyDelete"Listening" on this blog just means "doing what I want." Haven't you ever heard of listening and then disagreeing? Well I am sorry, not everybody agrees with you, and your voice as a parishioner is no more important than other parishioner who thinks differently than you. You cannot please all of the people all of the time. So, they just chose to do what they believe is the right thing to do (if we are talking about St. Vincents).
And what is wrong with the way the staff relates to us? Unless you all have an enlightening experience to share, I have not been mistreated by anybody on the staff. Again, I will get responses with people having opinions based on what they "feel" and "sense", with no real substance to back up their claims. I bet nobody on this blog even knows anybody on the staff.
I want specifics other than dumb generics like a change in "attitude." Short of having the Pope come in and firing everyone (the DOR staff and parish staff) who are involved in the St. Vincents sale, what organizationally speaking do you want to have changed and WHY?
This blog doesn't debate issues and substance, it debates personalities and style.
I cannot not speak of the youth program. The youth are the future of the Church, wherever they live. We are doing the Church a grave disservice to have a youth program that is so offensive to the youth and many parents of the parish. In regard to 4:04 and what kind of change would we like? How about starting with a staff and administrator that speak TRUTH TO THE MEMBERS REGARDING PLANS AND PROGRESS ON THE PLANS AND FINANCIALS OF THE PARISH, in a timely manner. Be TRUTHFUL about the Youth porgram. Registered members versus attendance and why.
ReplyDeleteBe TRUTHFUL about where the parish is with Providence Housing, when and who contacted the zoning board and how they are working with it here in the city, where we really stand with the proposal and has the bishop signed it?
Let's just be honest, forthcoming and transparent and maybe that could bring about some trust which is pretty much gone among the laity.We do have a right and obligation to know. (Read Vat.II)
How about some community building among members. A "Hello how are you" after Mass does not cut it. But how can we have such events when we leave a whole segment of the parish out because the elderly cannot manage the hills around St. Mary's to get into the gym where events seem to have to take place.
Finally, the admisistration should know by now that Corning is a small city where there are few secrets and it is far better for all to hear the truth from the administrator than from the grapevine around town.
By the way, according to studies, a grapevine is 90% correct.
11:43, I don't think you are being totally honest when you say things like, "I bet nobody on this blog even knows anybody on the staff."
ReplyDeleteI, for one, know the staff, have had my share of both good and bad experiences with them, and so on.
There has been plenty of substance regarding relations between staff and laity. I'm afraid it is the sort of substance that you may disagree with, however. Therefore, you dismiss it.
Also, there is a clear difference between the teaching magisterium of the Catholic Church and local decisions made on the ground in a parish.
Catholic laity do have the right and obligation to speak out when they perceive a wrong in their Church. In fact, there is a storied history of Catholics, with lay and clergy and religious, who have brought needed change and healing to the Church throughout its history...by speaking out.
I sympathize with the discomfort you feel, but no one is forcing you to read this blog.
I beg to differ with 11:43...I know members of the staff...past and present and have even broken bread with a few of them....
ReplyDeleteLet's not waste our time responding to 11:43's unfounded, unsubstanciated accusation. The accusation is simply not true and many of the parish know this. Two or three corrections suffice to help that blogger realize the untruth of the statement. Our time is better spent in uplifting the severe problems that exist and are not being addressed, problems like ignoring the majority of the parish members voice for the din of a few followers of (I am not sure who or what is informing the minority voices who seem to be heard.
ReplyDeleteFor the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
ReplyDelete18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Guess the ones who prefer not to gather up the lost better brush up on their bible;or doesn't that apply anymore to those who are getting along "just fine"?
on a positive note, 9:30 mass at St.V was really nice! I don't know if it was by accident or someone listened but I could actually hear myself think and didn't get blown out of my seat with over the top music. The homily was good too.
ReplyDeleteYes Carol I was there. The homily was fitting for the readings and the Eucharist. I was impressed at the crowd. Actually while there were a few spaces here and there around the church, there were people standing along the side in the back. Maybe this needs to be noted that it is a viable location. Alice
ReplyDeleteno bulletins again...week two...the home bound are left out....are they all in LV???
ReplyDelete11:43- I could write a short story on the staff members who have repeatedly treated parishioners and volunteers poorly. I hesitate to share details or specify who. Not all staff members are implicated and but there truly is a problem with 3 of them. Sorry if this is news to you but it is the truth.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, I can think of 5 current staff members that have either lied to me and others or treated people with disrespect and criticism. This is also the truth. Sadly, the majority rules at 222 Dodge Avenue.
ReplyDeleteAmen, Carol and Alice,
ReplyDeleteI came in during the opening hymn and had to sit toward the back at the break. Was glad that SVdP was almost packed! Hope it continues! Curious if SM was equally as crowded this past Sunday.
Mary- A New Year's weekend Sunday mass is typically crowded. People don't go the Sat. night mass if it falls on New Year's day.
ReplyDelete