Give us your feedback about the meeting...share any additional ideas...and even the things you didn't like about it. :-)
And here's the link to the Power Point presentation. We'll get the results of our brainstorming session up as soon as we can.
Thank you, thank you, to all who participated. Your ideas and input and honest zeal was amazing and inspiring.
What a wonderful and inspiring meeting. For the first time in a long time, I truly feel blessed to be a part of this faith community. We can turn this around, we have made a great step in the right direction. Denis Sweeney was the perfect choice for a facilitator. To all who worked so hard to make this day happen- may God bless you and support you as you continue to do His work.
ReplyDeleteIt's going to take some creative thinking, hard work and committment to persuade leadership to save Saint Vincent's. But from what I witnessed today, anything is possible. The meeting was the jump start we needed. Save Our Parish.
ReplyDeleteTo SOP committee members- You are not the evil do-ers some have made you out to be! In fact, quite the opposite. The meeting today is a perfect example of how a few people who are led by the Spirit can accomplish God's will. Move forward in prayer and good faith. We must pray for our parish leaders.
ReplyDeleteIt was great to have Father Lew at the meeting but I am disappointed that none of the parish, finance or facilitees reps. were there (At least none that I saw). They missed a passionate and positive plea from an impressive group of parishioners. I have attended many, many gatherings and meetings in this parish but never anything like the one today. Today I was proud to be a Catholic in the city of Corning. Save Saint Vincents and I believe we will Save Our parish.
ReplyDeleteAmen, Ann!
ReplyDeleteIt was incredible to hear so many awesome ideas. I, too, am proud to be a part of this parish and to be a Catholic in Corning.
We have just begun. The Holy Spirit is working. May It empower us all to "perservere in running the "race" that lies ahead."
Thanks for all the wonderful comments. I think the SOP team just got a whole lot bigger.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I know of a couple committee/council members who attended. Just keep it under your hats. :-) Good people. Word will get back to the leadership.
To those who may be upset with the people who started this website and organized yesterday's meeting: Be open. Give them a chance. They really are good people fighting for all of us. I was impressed by their kindness, their charity and their love for the parish. I am on board with however they decide to approach the sale of Saint Vincents. They are listening to the parishioners and making decisions based on the majority. Isn't this what we have needed for a long time? God bless all of you and God bless All Saints Parish.
ReplyDeleteI was not expecting the meeting to go well yesterday. I was expecting it to be a bitching session. I was pleasantly surprised. The organizers and Denis Sweeney did a phenominal job to maintain the Christian spirit. Many ideas were generated and my advice to parish staff and leaders would be to take a look and listen. If this parish is going to be saved there needs to be some willingness on the part of leadership to entertain different solutions. This is not a time to carry the pride factor; "my way or the highway" has already caused too many losses.
ReplyDeleteI also attending the meeting and I have to say the meeting did go better than I anticipated. Given that there is a lot of work that needs to be done in a short period of time to turn those very good ideas into concrete proposals that can be enacted on by our Parish Leadership. Just saying we need to raise more money is great but we need plans and a path forward on how this is going to happen. Going to the leadership with great ideas is not enough!
ReplyDeletefeedback-
ReplyDeletePositive-very well attended, great ideas and participation, passion in saving Saint Vincent's, passion about working as a team to achieve this
Negative- the people who needed to hear from these parishioners (Deacon Dean, staff, parish council, etc.) did not come. The division starts at the top and works its way down. Until leadership figures this out, it's going to be tough to bring about change.
11:00am above hit the nail on the head. Going to leadership with great ideas is not enough, because he won't listen to any ideas that conflict with his agenda. Where does this leave us? I'll tell you where, meeting in the public library on a Sunday afternoon to discuss why our churches are empty.
ReplyDeleteThanks for such a positive meeting, that focused on the issues. The moderator did a great job.
ReplyDeleteI hope you are able to formulate a plan or two of action, with names of volunteers committed to the various components necessary to make it happen (fundraising, volunteer coordination, evangelical outreach, etc.).
These volunteers need to expressly state their desire to work with the parish leadership, and to bury any past resentments. The parish has been giving a lot of attention recently in homilies and bulletins to the need for forgiveness and a loving community - and volunteers need to explicitly embrace that spirit as they propose a different direction.
One more addition - the parish needs to be presented with persuasive reasons to save St. V's, not just methods of doing so. So far the reason heard the most is one of sentimentality, which seems rather trivial if not explored. More valid reasons are:
- Preserving and strengthening a Catholic presence in a key neighborhood and in the broader community, rather than sending yet another demoralizing message of ongoing failure of the Catholic church in this area.
- Honoring those parishioners who are tied to St. Vincent's Church, and so keeping and (hopefully) strengthening their support at a time when the parish cannot afford to lose any more members
- Providing a challenge and opportunity to parishioners to be renewed in their life of faith. Don't want your parish to end up like the rest of the imploding Catholic churches throughout the Northeast? Then grow in holiness, apostolic work, charitable contributions and evangelical outreach! This is your last chance, and then no complaining if we have to sell of churches...
- Keeping worship space that will be needed if and when the influx of thousands of gas workers from the Marcellus Shale project takes place
Other reasons?
I think we are missing the point. We generated a lot of great ideas but ideas don't close the budget. I don't care who attended and who didn't attend if we don't go the the leadership with a firm proposal we are not going to get them to change their plan. We can't present just ideas to the leadership; we have to give them a proposal on how to close the budget without selling St. V. We need to make sure we sit down and review all the ideas and pull a solid plan together, we can not go in without a well laid out plan that shows how we can close the budget thereby allowing us to keep St. V.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of 12:56 PM,
ReplyDeleteYou make a valid point and I believe the core team at SOP hopes to do just that...submit all the comments to parish leadership but with a suggested plan...whether or not they agree to implement it is up to them...whether or not they are willing to work with SOP is also up to them. Some of the ideas that were submitted Sunday need some further research to see if they are possible (i.e. grant money for SM for "restoration." -- just one but there are some others) In the meantime...Prayer, Penance and Participation are things each of us can do right now...for those are never done in vain.
To blog, annonymous 12:15 as to reasons to save St. V. In the group I was in, the elderly women expressed great concern and fear of trying to walk up hills and drive on hills icy in winter and have a fear of falling.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason is age of each church. There is talk of upgrading sound systems etc. Well, St. M has been and it is still very difficult to hear, continues to be difficult to see the altar and a former parishoner who is over 80 yrs old,said the church was never warm from the time he was a kid. So, let's talk about efficiency and lets talk about ease of approaching the church for folks from Corning south side and northside an Painted Post. Location? Which location is most central. More thought could be given to the needs of those who want to worship together from elderly to youth.Space was a reason for maintaining St. M. However the difference in capacity between the two churches is minimal and there are creative ways to address any shortage of seats at St.V.
I was so impressed with the genuine concern and thoughtful participation of attendees who were looking to the future with careful attention to people needs and financial concerns and desire for a authentic faith and church community. To me the meeting was a true example of "We are the Church" (Vat.ii document)
Don't know if this came up yesterday in any of the groups but, in light of our finances, the parish needs to make further staff cuts. (Parish leadership stated in the most recent bulletin that none were planned. If we really want to save Saint Vincent's, which translates into saving parishioners, we need to consider everything.)
ReplyDeleteDo we need 2 full-time maintainance personel? How about some volunteers?
Do we need a full-time youth minister? For many years, we did just fine with a part time position.
Do we need 2 business positions?
Cutting back on these 3 positions would save the parish in excess of $100,000 annually in salary and benefits. It's tough to let people go but with the decline in buildings and parishioners,it's even tougher to justify these positions.
To All,
ReplyDeleteIt is truly a blessing to hear so many positive comments and feedbacks from the meeting yesterday. I can tell you that the SOP team is working very hard to be positive, connect with the community and ultimately, strengthen our parish. In addition to yesterday’s meetings, there are comments above that we will add into our package when we meet with the leaders. We are very aware that this is just the beginning and that we have to continue to work hard to make progress.
Again, thank you to all who attended yesterday and for all who are helping to move this forward.
Spoke with an elderly neighbor this evening who attended the meeting yesterday. She stated that she hadn't slept in weeks, since the announcement to sell Saint Vincent's. She felt so alone and wondered why nobody else in the parish seemed to feel the grief she was experiencing. She felt over-joyed following the meeting on Sunday! She was so pleased to hear that others shared her sorrow and are resolved to save her beloved Saint Vincent's. She isn't able to provide much financial assistance but she is offering her daily rosary for the SOP group.
ReplyDeleteI attended the meeting on Sunday and was very impressed. My only concern is the way people presented to raise money has all been tried and also dropped for lack of volunteers. Our world is very different today than a few years back when most of the mothers were stay at home.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that does disturb me so much is our failure to thank Corning for their expenditure of thousands of dollars to save the St. Patrick's bell, time capsule, and glass window in the front of the church. Was the time capsule opened? If so, what was in it. One of the problems brought up in our meeting was the lack of communication. I think the boat has sailed for Corning to help our parish solve our problems.
Mary C.....you said "I believe the core team at SOP hopes to do just that...submit all the comments to parish leadership but with a suggested plan". I am assuming before you go to the parish leadership with our ideas and plan(s) that you will have fully vetted the plan with the group that attended the Sunday meeting. This team worked hard to develop these ideas and I feel they should be allowed to approve/reject the plan prior to presentation to leadership.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't attend the meeting but have heard from many friends who did that it was a great showing of the faithful. My thought is that to put a plan together, we need to rely on the younger families. We need their energy to build a future for Saint Vincent's, much fundraising will ne needed. The familiar faces of many of these young familes are gone. If they didn't leave when Mrs. McCaig left, then they left when Alene did. How can we build a future without the young families? I am older. Most of my friends are older. We can't do this without help.
ReplyDelete9:18am- We need the old and the young. You do present a good point and this was discussed in my small group on Sunday- how do we get the people to come back? Especially in light of the fact that they are very happy where they landed- the ABC parishes, the Monastery and Horseheads. I don't know if they are committed. I know some that are hurt because they feel like nobody cared when they left. Some aren't going to consider coming back unless there is a leadership change. It's going to be a difficult sell to get them back. It would take a door to door campaign with a promise that things are different than when they left.
ReplyDeleteJoe, I agree that for most who have left, it will take a leadership change for them to come back. It truly isn't worth the effort of campaigning for people to return unless there is a leadership change. And if this change doesn't occur, St. Joseph's in Campbell will probably need to build an addition to their church!
ReplyDeleteApril,
ReplyDeleteJust as there are many prayers for the preservation of St. Vincent's, let there be as many prayers for the preservation of our parish. We should make every effort to get our brethren back 'home', not for the sake of leadership change, but for the sake of our full faith community. In each and every Mass there is a call for us to unite. This is particularly difficult in this environment where it seems every grievance or disagreement seems charged with 'I'll leave', or 'I'll stop giving.' Still, this is the call. At some point we need to decide what is MOST important. Is it leadership, liturgy, music or something else? Or is it the joy of our formation in love and forgiveness? When does community start taking a front seat? When does that start driving personal decision making? We should ask every family to return because we miss them. And they should return because they miss us.
Not to be overlooked. I'd like to congratulate the group that organized Sunday's meeting. I experienced as thoughtful and balanced.
ReplyDeleteBill,
ReplyDeleteThe original intent of "save our parish" was to address the (negative) direction the parish was taking, and to heal the division, which was causing the exodus to ABC and else where.
In the last 2 months, "save our parish" took on a whole new meaning to be "save StV."
We have moved from the spiritual to the material, as the loss of a building is more tangible than the loss of parishioners (who by many accounts, are bitter from not being noticed they are missing); and is the more immediate concern, becuase once StV is gone...
We - SOPers originally focusing on the spiritual - know the bottomline action that will bring back those now missing. But seemingly, we can't take that action...
Now, SOPers who have joined in since this became a facilities issue - are beginning to realize what the others know: all ripples in the pond are tracing back to the pebble that was thrown about four years ago.
If we can't save and repair the physical parish, how can we save and repair the spiritual parish?
Bill, I would love to be part of the community of ASP. However, there are two aspects to my faith that I think vital and while one is community the other is developing a relationship with God through the Eucharist. The few times I attended ASP, the noise and the emphasis on music overshadowed a prayerful, reverent space' Emphasis on the Eucharistic prayers and miracle before usw was quite diminished. Since my spiritual needs cannot be met at this time there I must go elsewhere and it saddens me. So while I agree with you about community there are some who need more than that, like communal worship that is more than communal noise. For those that can worship in that environment I say, keep it for them and accept that others must move on to grow in God's love.
ReplyDeleteBill-
ReplyDeleteI always respect your insightful comments.
I agreed with your perspective until a few weeks ago. I believed, as you do, that we at All Saints are family. And just like my blood family, we stick together. And even when we struggle in our differences, we stick together because we are family. (Like when I am stuck sitting by my crazy Aunt Rosemary at Thanksgiving dinner, I still go to the family event...because...well, we are family.) So, even when there are people in the Church who drive me crazy, I will suck it up, because members of families do this for the sake of the family.
I have changed my mind. When Deacon Dean made the decision to terminate Alene Goodman, he severed our family. With complete disregard for the role Alene played in sustaining our family, he plucked her from the family tree. This makes me feel like there is little reward or value in being part of this family. This makes me feel like you could be next or I or whoever doesn't fit into the master plan.
Maybe someday I will feel differently. But today, I'm not where you suggest I should be.
Let's keep praying.
I'm going to jump in an answer this question from anonymous who said, "I am assuming before you go to the parish leadership with our ideas and plan(s) that you will have fully vetted the plan with the group that attended the Sunday meeting. This team worked hard to develop these ideas and I feel they should be allowed to approve/reject the plan prior to presentation to leadership."
ReplyDeleteAs was explained to the group who attended the meeting on Sunday, their ideas will be organized and presented to parish leadership at the next pastoral council meeting. The ground rules were that the alternatives would be collected and synthesized under the groupings we agreed upon at the meeting, and that these would then be presented to leadership. I think that was satisfactory to everyone, right?
Also, every individual is free to organize their own ideas and present them to the parish council -- next meeting is Sept. 27 at 7 p.m. at Rogers Hall; or to request a meeting with Deacon Dean.
The more people who get involved and active, the better. SOP is not the only avenue through which positive change could or should come to our parish. It is one of many streams.
There have been flags waving for the past four years, Bill, and you think forgiveness is the answer? What will that solve when the root of the problems remains. All the while the Diocese ignores the voices of the people..and still has the audacity to ask us to give to the annual appeal!
ReplyDeleteTeresa of Avila, so you are saying you are going to the Parish council only with the list of categorized ideas not with a proposal(s) to save St.V? This is not what I took from the meeting. I would think that the parish council will want a solid list of actionable proposals that if enacted will save St.V.
ReplyDeleteA number of the ideas that were offered at the meeting could certainly translate into a solid list of actionable proposals.
ReplyDeleteTired... Frustrated... Discouraged... Sad... Angry... Hurt... Wondering if this is what the Blessed Mother, Saint John the Evangelist, Saint Mary Magdalene felt as they stood at the Cross (on this feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross)... Why is the Lord asking us to carry this cross... What will our "resurrection" bring to us...
ReplyDeleteHow can there be such great parish leaders like Fr. Erb, Fr. Connor, Fr. Farrell, Fr. Kubinski around us and we have such a struggle?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 6:30 - I hear you. I feel tired, too.
I have gone to Addison, Elmira, and Odessa over the last several months just to get a boost. I was very happily surprised to see the Son Rise music ministry in Odessa.
I get tempted to pray "God, are you punishing us or are you planning to have the phoenix rise from the ashes?"
The Fathers mentioned above are not looking for moments of glory in the spotlight. They aren't looking to have their pictures displayed on the pages of the weekly bulletin They deliver what the people hunger for without any motives or agendas. Plain and simple. Give them a try and see for yourselves. God is not punishing us..the devil is playing his games.
ReplyDeleteBill, I think Anonymous at 2:58 said it very eloquently. It's all tied together - leadership, liturgy, music, community etc. I believe that most people who left did so very reluctantly, and there were a number of issues they were unhappy about. When people feel they have input, that they can make a difference, they will stay and fight. SOP is the first sign of hope I've seen in quite a while. It is much bigger than preserving St. Vincent's. We really want to know if we can influence anything happening in All Saints Parish as a whole. In other local parishes, we are listened to, although of course, nothing is perfect.
ReplyDeleteI sat in mass in Addison last weekend.The depth of the division of our parish hit me when I looked in the nearby pews and noticed both Alene and the McCaigs. Very, very sad.
ReplyDeleteApril, to me we can not influence any of the leadership by sitting on this site blogging. This does nothing but makes us all feel better, makes us all feel like someone is listening. We need to create some solid proposals on how we can make improvements to the leadership, liturgy, music, community. Without solid proposals we will not be heard. I am worried that no one within the SOP core team is developing proposals they are only going to "collect and synthesize the alternatives under the groupings agreed upon at the meeting, and that these would then be presented to leadership. We must develop a solid proposal(s) to really Save Our Parish a synthesized list is not enough!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 7:10 a.m. Please share with us your ideas. The more input the better. You can either email us at admin@savingourparish.com, and we'll contact you, or feel free to share them here. We could put them in a separate post, if you would like.
ReplyDelete7:10am- I tend to agree with you in regards to the proposal issue, however I have NO confidence that Deacon Dean will consider any other proposal except his. We can work our butts off developing a plan to save Saint Vincent's but based on Dean's history, we will have little impact. The cold reality is that if he wanted to preserve Saint Vincent's, he would have turned to the parishioners for help BEFORE he decided to sell. His intent from the get-go, was to down size and then build his mega-church. I don't think this train can be derailed.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 7:10 a.m. - I'm not a member of the core team, just someone getting involved. Of course I agree that we need a proposal. And this site is just one way of organizing and staying informed, but not the only way.
ReplyDeleteThe mega-church concept is yet another way to Protestantize the Catholic Church. Google "mega-Church"- a protestant and evangelical movement with no references to the Catholic faith.
ReplyDeleteToo many people with their heads in the sand about the parish leadership. No wonder the outside churches are filling up C-PP people.
ReplyDeleteWell folks, as much as want to move ahead, we continue to go back to the origin of the problems. Frankly, I am feeling like there is no moving ahead if we are to carry the burden of the current admin.
ReplyDeleteWhy do people think one campus at St. Mary's is a megachurch?? Historically speaking, it has been the protestants with small independent churches and the CATHOLICS with huge mega sized cathedrals (which dwarf the size of St Mary's). Protestant mega churches are a relatively recent phenomenon (15 years or so?). So I think the argument that somehow consolidating to one campus creates a protestant mega church is indeed a strange one. I fail to see how a one campus church (which is typical in most of the country: one parish = one church) makes us more "protestantized." The Catholic mass is still the mass. We are all united as Catholics. As long as we have community and each other, who cares where we worship? While I love beautiful churches, Jesus is still present in the Eucharist even if the priest said a mass in a parking lot!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous September 15, 2010 11:38 AM
ReplyDeleteAmen, amen, amen, though I don't for a second minimize the sense of loss that would be felt by those who call St. Vincent's church their spiritual home. I was raised attending St. Mary's and it is a very specific and significant part of my history. If it were St. Mary's on the block, my heart would be aching. No, it'd be more than that. I would, I think, be distraught. I would be struggling with acceptance and praying for understanding.
Perhaps the fear many have is not so much of one large Church but rather a leader who may aspire to set himself up as the next Rick Warren.
ReplyDeleteI would not equate a Protestant church with a Catholic church. There are many differences, the main one being that our Lord is physically manifest in a Catholic church. A Catholic church is sanctified on a level that is not present in Protestant churches. This whole idea of holding mass in a field is fine if your church has been destroyed in a flood or war, but to voluntarily destroy it because of a money crunch is short-sighted in the extreme.
ReplyDeleteSecond, All Saints Parish was clustered. Originally four parishes, you can see how the Catholic Church has traditionally viewed parishes and the location of churches. This new stuff does seem to be modeled on the mega-church philosophy.
Or Jimmy Baker...
ReplyDeleteto 11:38am- I care where I worship! And so do many others. Our Churches are Holy places, Holy ground, the Holy dwelling place of our Lord. Our Churches house the tabernacle and the altar of the sacrifice of the mass. I CARE when another one of our Churches is threatened to be demolished. I can't help but believe that our Lord cares, as well. Sure, we can celebrate mass in a parking lot or a barnyard but why would we when we have beautiful, historic Churches to gather and worship in?
ReplyDeleteThe issue that we keep dancing around is the fact that our income is not equal to our expenses and it has been that way for the past 10 years. That is ultimately why we had to lay people off; that is ultimately why we will have to go to one church. We have to face that fact and move on; until we do we will be stuck bantering back and forth never moving forward.
ReplyDeleteWe came up with some great ideas at the Sunday meeting but until we (SOP Core team) pull together the ideas and present a solid proposal(s) that show the leadership that we can work together to save St. V then we are just wasting our time and theirs.
Teresa of Avila my ideas are your ideas, I have no more than what was generated on Sunday.
A few thoughts for those considering leaving ASP, or have already left, to go to another parish - it's harder to leave than you think, and for good reason!
ReplyDeleteFor Catholics, their membership in a given parish and diocese is determined not by their personal decision but by where they live (with a few exceptions). See Canon Law 518 — "As a general rule a parish is to be territorial, that is it embraces all the Christian faithful within a certain territory; whenever it is judged useful, however, personal parishes are to be established based upon rite, language, the nationality of the Christian faithful within some territory or some other determining factor."
This parish membership is real, carrying with it certain rights (such as the right to be buried by that parish) and obligations (such as the requirement to receive permission from the parish to be baptized or married elsewhere).
The Lord could have set His Church up in many ways, but He chose to bind people together in worship who live beside each other in their daily life. We sense the value of this - in fact, it's one of the best reasons to preserve neighborhood churches such as St. Vincent's. We also know it can be a challenge to worship next to your neighbors, about whom you may know (or think you know) more than you'd like.
Obviously, Catholics may attend Mass wherever they wish - such is the beauty of the universal church - but the nature of the Church is such that we are not able to arbitrarily choose our local parish family. You may decide to put some distance between yourself and your parish, just as we sometimes do with our natural family; but, as with your own family, you shouldn't do that without serious cause, and you should continue to love and pray for your (local) parish family.
Presumably, God situated us in families and in a parish so that we could learn to love unconditionally those people to whom we are bound. So let's not waste the opportunity to grow in real Christian charity during this time of deep disagreement and suffering about the direction of the parish. Embrace the challenge God is giving you to love those parishioners who you find it difficult to love, and whose actions you find hurtful - we all need this type of purification! "If you love those who love you, what recompense will you have...Don't the pagans do the same?" (Matthew 5:46-47).
I am not suggesting an avoidance of real issues - that's the easy way out - or that you must attend only ASP for Mass. But recognize that, if you live within its territorial borders, it is your parish whether you like it or not. Don't break off your ties to your parish without serious consideration, and don't forget that it's still, under church law, your parish home.
And consider whether God is calling you to reconcile yourself to your parish neighbors by seeking and extending forgiveness. Don't wait for the other person to ask your forgiveness, either - make the first gesture. "But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna. Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:22-24).
_____
More on canon law:
http://catholicexchange.com/2008/04/11/111841/
http://www.st-joseph-foundation.org/cfd15-6b.htm
Anonymous 2:57: Please be patient. All is not lost. Pray. Pray. Pray. God is working actively on the behalf of all of us in this parish. We are not alone. Faith will see us through, no matter what happens.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 3:27: Your message seems inspired from the Angels of the Church.
I hope all of us are praying each and every day for the safety and blessings of God to descend upon all in our parish. All. Not just those we agree with.
I truly believe that this decison should come from the people. Many people have supported
ReplyDeleteSt. Vincent's Church for many years (more then 60). The original church was part of the school. The decision to close St. Vincent's or
St. Mary's should belong to the parishioners.
I believe that St. Mary's should be part of the
equation. I pray that the people will come forward and save St. Vincent's. You are not just saving a building, but a community of God's children.
I agree with above post. It would be interesting to see if Mr. Wexell, who facilitated my meeting, would be as enthusiastic about selling and demolishing Saint Mary's. I say put everything on the table- staff, buildings, Churches and let the parishioners decide.
ReplyDeleteSt. Marys is the biggest of churches, can not fit everyone in St. V when we go to one church. Besides no one is ever going to buy St Marys. We need to stop the bantering we are doing nothing but wasting time we need to no fooling start working on soild proposals.
ReplyDeleteSo...we keep the church that is least accessable and needs the most repair because we think we will need more space. I think we will lose many parishioners with the closing of Saint Vincent's and the size-factor will become a non-issue. Praise be to God if Saint Vincent's were to become too small- we add more masses or we add on to the Church. There is room for expansion. Also, how do you know that no one would ever buy Saint Mary's? Has it ever been listed? I don't recall that Saint Vincent's was ever listed, was it? Who even knows if $350,000 is a good or fair price?
ReplyDeleteNow that IHM is out of the picture, supposedly, try heating St. Mary's for daily Masses..and don't think that everyone will fit into the chapel. A handful of individuals calling the shots for the whole parish and closing
ReplyDeleteSt.V's..should all be proud of yourselves.
We always end up where we started:
ReplyDeletepoor leadership=loss of parishioners=lost revenue
If you rule out the most logical solution, we will need a miracle to keep the parish afloat.
I haven't ruled that out!
It would be interesting to see how the facilities could withstand a "stress test:" instead of attending 9:30 at StV, we all decided to attend 7:00 at StM, or Sat evening at StV?
ReplyDeleteDon't think people will come back. Are the people who remain willing or able to increase contributions? In this weekend's bulletin- the collection 2 weeks ago is $22,000 and then $9,000 the next weekend. How is this possible? Did they really collect $22,000????
ReplyDeleteDon't they sometimes add bequests or special donations and mass stipends to the collection? I don't know if we ever know what the actual amount is. IF they are getting $22,000 in the collection basket, heck, we won't need to sell IHM or Saint Vincent's. Hooray.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the collections...two weeks ago was the beginning of the month and that is when the Parish receives (or collects) from those who contribute on a monthly basis. Thus they very well may have received $22,000 in that week and counted in all as that Sunday's collection.
ReplyDeleteRegarding this thread...There are some very good and salient points presented but a couple of things need to be remembered:
ReplyDelete1) We, as SOP, cannot come up with a concrete plan on how to help the Parish improve its finances (and save our Churches) until we understand EXACTLY what repairs need to be made, which repairs are required immediately, and where the $$$ are being spent. Once we, THE PARISHIONERS not just SOP, have an understanding of these items only then can we come up with viable action plans to address the issues. Our action plan moving forward needs to be to gather the necessary information to make educated and informed decisions. This leads me to my second point:
2) The next step to increase the long term viability of the Parish needs to be determining the root (underlying) cause of our problems. If it is leadership, so be it, but I believe that is too simple an answer. There is a lot of anger and angst directed towards Dean (and some of it may be justified) but that does not help us solve the problems. We need to realize he is the Parish Administrator and find ways to work with him to improve our Parish. It is easier to originate and Shepard the desired changes from the inside in a cooperative manner, than it is from the outside. I would like to go back to the anger and angst comment and add: holding onto these feeling is counter to what we believe as Catholics. Love thy neighbor, treat him as your brother, forgiveness...these are all vital tenets of our Faith which we seem to be overlooking. Besides, my Grandfather always said, when you let someone anger you they are in control. We need to suppress the anger because venting in his direction only empowers him to say this website, this blog, and SOP are divisive and hurtful to the Parish. Yet, as the vast majority who attended last Sunday's meeting state SOP is a positive force in the Parish and truly wants what is best for the Parish. So, back to my beginning point, we need to work together to determine the underlying cause of our problems. What has driven the Parishioners away, what an we do to improve tithing, how can we grow as a faith community, the list goes on and on. Realizing that once we begin asking the questions we may not like the answers because it may very well end up that staff has to be cut or Churches/buildings must be sold.
3)Finally, I would like to remind everyone that there will not be unlimited time at the Parish Council meeting on Sept 27th. We have been allotted 15 minutes for discussion and, accordingly, not all the information, comments and suggestions that were developed at the meeting will be presented (verbally) to the council. As was discussed at the meeting, we have developed a summary of what was developed and that will be given to the council (and available for anyone who attends the meeting) for review. 15 minutes is not an adequate period of time to outline a detailed action plan, even if we had all the information necessary to develop such a plan, or to cover in adequate detail all the EXCELLENT SUGGESTIONS, COMMENTS, AND IDEAS that were generated at last Sunday's meeting. This may seem like we are backing off what was discussed at the meeting but nothing could be further from the truth. We have every intention of presenting every idea to the Parish administration. The goal being that those items which we agree upon we will take and move forward developing an actionable plan (think business proposal)that will be ultimately accepted and acted upon.
There was a lot of passion and excitement generated at last weeks meeting and we need to hold onto to that. But that passion and excitement needs to be tempered with the fact that we will not receive immediate answers. There is a process that must be worked through and we are currently in the beginning stages of that process. So keep the faith and we will ALL get through together. United in our Faith, One Community working together to improve the viability of the Parish we all care about so deeply.
Juan C. 1) I am assuming you have called George Martinec to get the full list of repairs required; the key repairs were listed in the presentation. Just ask George. 2) As you saw in the presentation the parish has not balanced the budget for at least 10 years, well before the current administration arrived. Our income has held constant at $800k and expenses have actually been reduced over the past several years. Not closing the budget has been happening for at least 10 years, not a good way to run a church. 3) Are you going to allow the rest of the parish to see what you will be presenting to the parish council? I would think you would publish your list of ideas on the web site before the meeting so the whole parish can see it and have the ability to comment on it prior to the meeting.
ReplyDeleteOne last thing I am very glad you and your team are finally going to control your anger and treat people as you would like to be treated. But working together will take time; a lot of hurtful things have been said since this site was started. I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?
To Anonymous of 11:21pm,
ReplyDeleteSUBJ: IT IS NOT SOP WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS --- IT IS A FRUSTRATED PARISH COMMUNITY
I would like to start with trying to clear up a misconception regarding this blog and all who post on it; namely that we at SOP continue to perpetuate negative comments and threads as a way to bring division within the parish or to just be mean and hurtful. THIS IS FALSE. This blog is viewed by a wide number of people. In August, there were over 1000 unique IP addresses that viewed our blog and website. At the Sunday meeting that we held, of the 100 people there, only 4 wanted to receive information from another source other than the blog/website. To assume that is only us at SOP who are making these posts is short sighted to magnitude of people who visit and contribute.
The blog/website is an effective method at getting communication out to the parish. We at SOP have tried to establish ground rules and are working very hard to keep this non-personal and positive. But the fact of the matter is that this community is frustrated and this is one of the few ways they can voice that frustration. I know this first hand when discussing ideas on Sunday in our small groups and the individuals voiced their opinions directly to me. I can tell you that this is not a frustration that is held by a small group of people. Your comment regarding
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
As a good friend of mine has said this morning, “ that group” of people are the parishioners of this community. We WILL NOT censor their angst. Direct attacks are not permitted and are diligently screened. But again, the idea that it is only us at SOP is incorrect.
With respect to the first two comments: We are working on getting the same information that has been made available to the other councils. We have invited the council members to our meeting on Sunday; we have asked for clarification during roll-out sessions. We have not received any other information from our requests. I assure you it is on our radar since we cannot work to resolve these issues without a clear understanding of what we are up against.
The notes from Sunday’s meeting will be posted on the website. Steve R has requested that we provide them with a list of our questions before the meeting and we will do so. We only have 15 min so they are only a synopsis of the results. We will also have copies of the Executive Summary available for those who attend the parish council meeting. I would encourage you to attend.
On a personal note, to answer your question:
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
Yes, I would and am in fact doing so. Our group has been attacked directly in the pulpit; we’ve been called “horrendous” during a homily. We’ve been told that we need to trust that God is in charge and to have faith in the current administration and that to not have that faith makes us bad people and divisive, implying that I don’t have faith in God.
Yet, I do trust that God is in charge. I can tell you that on the numerous times I wanted to walk away from this parish and go worship someplace else, that God revealed that I am to stay. I pray every day that God continues to guide the direction that I’m going and to correct my course so that I am doing His will.
So I leave you with a question: What if we are both right? That God is leading us all down each of these paths with an ultimate goal that is beyond what this administration wants, beyond what the diocese wants? Then do you have the courage to follow God’s call and to walk this path, regardless of the hurtful things that are said?
Again, I do and I am.
Do you understand how a blog works? These posts are from many, many, many people in this parish. Obviously you were not at the SOP meeting or you would have seen the stats on how many hits this site gets. Check the power point that is posted and you will see the numbers.
ReplyDeleteTo 11:21pm
ReplyDeleteEvery blog could be from the same person, blogging under various name. Nobodys knows.
To imply that all blogs were supported by the SOP team is unfair.
You say that many hurtful things have been said on the blog. This may be true but my question to you would be, how many of these things were inaccurate?
Even when the truth hurts it must be brought to light.
Anonymous 11:21 p.m. said: “One last thing I am very glad you and your team are finally going to control your anger and treat people as you would like to be treated. But working together will take time; a lot of hurtful things have been said since this site was started. I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 11:21 p.m., I believe you are either a parish staff person or on one of the councils. Welcome and thank you for visiting and commenting. This kind of interaction is so needed in our parish.
Friend, you seem to be under the impression that only a very few people are commenting, and you mistakenly assume the blog comments come from the Saving Our Parish team exclusively. We don’t know how many people are commenting, but we can tell you exactly how many are visiting the blog. For instance, our high for this past week was 713 hits on Monday. Of that 713, 243 were unique visitors, and 113 were returning visitors. On Tuesday and Wednesday we had 515 and 499 hits on the site, with over 200 unique visitors and just under 100 returning visitors. While more people read the blog than comment, the potential number of those who might comment is quite large.
Because many people prefer to remain anonymous, we can’t say for sure how many people actually comment. However, if you have followed the blog you can see that more and more people are feeling comfortable giving a name. That’s great news. And in that spirit, I have come out from under Teresa of Avila’s shadow and will henceforth post blogs under my own name.
Yes, anger and frustration have been expressed in some of the comments. But this is to be expected in a parish that is currently experiencing the turmoil of possibly losing three of our four churches in short order, as well as the loss of key personnel. Some sense of compassion, understanding, and forgiveness is needed, don’t you think? And a thick skin wouldn’t hurt, either.
Parishioners have been marginalized, ignored, and their feelings trampled on for quite a while now. You may not feel that way, but there are literally hundreds of people in this parish who do feel that way, and not just for the last couple months—they been feeling that way for years.
I do encourage anyone who is wondering about the tone of SavingOurParish.com to go to the website, read the articles and determine for themselves what this group of parishioners is all about. The blog will remain a place for all parishioners to have a forum in which to communicate. Changes to posting rules may happen as we move along, but as someone who has a lot of experience with weblogs, the overall tone of this blog is more benign than many other similar forums on the internet.
I believe that most of the parishioners who post are moving through the anger and are ready to begin working to get our parish healthy and growing again. The meeting on Sept. 12 gave ample evidence of that. What parish leadership needs to understand is that we all MUST work together to save this parish. The sad result of cutting out parishioner participation has been loss of attendance and giving—basically a loss of community. The healing will begin when leadership loves, respects, and trusts parishioners enough to include them in the decision-making process. Working together is not a choice. It is a necessity. The other way is demonstrably not effective.
3) Are you going to allow the rest of the parish to see what you will be presenting to the parish council? I would think you would publish your list of ideas on the web site before the meeting so the whole parish can see it and have the ability to comment on it prior to the meeting.
ReplyDeleteTo 11:21 above- This is a great suggestion! Open communication. Pass it along to the parish staff and council members. Communication, or rather the lack of, is one of the troublesome lackings of the parish.
Thanks, Gretchen for your last blog..very well written. I would assume the diocese also tunes in to what's happening by visiting this website and would be surprised to find out otherwise. I agree the anger is diminishing but the unhappiness with the parish leadership is stronger than ever. You would think someone would finally "get it". Come on people, wake up to the source of the problem and then address the issues.
ReplyDeleteRest assured, many people are blogging who are not affiliated with the SOP committee. This is from personal experience and knowledge. It is advantageous for the parish staff to put the blame on this small group.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect....isn't 15 minutes at a PC meeting a little crazy...we are talking about our parish...if they can't allow us more time shouldn't a special meeting be called to listen and answer our questions....does the diocese know that this is all the time they are giving us for such a big decision?????
ReplyDeleteCynthia C says,
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous of 11:21pm,
SUBJ: IT IS NOT SOP WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS --- IT IS A FRUSTRATED PARISH COMMUNITY
I would like to start with trying to clear up a misconception regarding this blog and all who post on it; namely that we at SOP continue to perpetuate negative comments and threads as a way to bring division within the parish or to just be mean and hurtful. THIS IS FALSE. This blog is viewed by a wide number of people. In August, there were over 1000 unique IP addresses that viewed our blog and website. At the Sunday meeting that we held, of the 100 people there, only 4 wanted to receive information from another source other than the blog/website. To assume that is only us at SOP who are making these posts is short sighted to the magnitude of people who visit and contribute.
The blog/website is an effective method at getting communication out to the parish. We at SOP have tried to establish ground rules and are working very hard to keep this non-personal and positive. But the fact of the matter is that this community is frustrated and this is one of the few ways they can voice that frustration. I know this first hand when discussing ideas on Sunday in our small groups and the individuals voiced their opinions directly to me. I can tell you that this is not a frustration that is held by a small group of people. Your comment regarding,
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
As a good friend of mine has said this morning, “that group” of people are the parishioners of this community. We WILL NOT censor their angst. Direct attacks are not permitted and are diligently screened. But again, the idea that it is only us at SOP is incorrect.
With respect to the first two comments: We are working on getting the same information that has been made available to the other councils. We invited the council members to our meeting on Sunday; we have asked for clarification during roll-out sessions. We have not received any other information from our requests. I assure you it is on our radar since we cannot work to resolve these issues without a clear understanding of what we are up against.
The notes from Sunday’s meeting will be posted on the website. Steve R has requested that we provide them with a list of our questions before the meeting and we will do so. We only have 15 min so they are only a synopsis of the results. We will also have copies of the Executive Summary available for those who attend the parish council meeting. I would encourage you to attend.
On a personal note, to answer your question:
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
Yes, I would and am in fact doing so. Our group has been attacked directly in the pulpit; we’ve been called “horrendous” during a homily. We’ve been told that we need to trust that God is in charge and to have faith in the current administration and that to not have that faith makes us bad people and divisive, implying that I don’t have faith in God.
Yet, I do trust that God is in charge. I can tell you that on the numerous times I wanted to walk away from this parish and go worship someplace else, that God revealed that I am to stay. I pray every day that God continues to guide the direction that I’m going and to correct my course so that I am doing His will.
So I leave you with a question: What if we are both right? That God is leading us all down each of these paths with an ultimate goal that is beyond what this administration wants, beyond what the diocese wants? Then do you have the courage to follow God’s call and to walk this path, regardless of the hurtful things that are said?
Again, I do and I am.
The Diocese has confidence in the decisions Deacon Dean makes.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...I am assuming you have called George Martinec to get the full list of repairs required; the key repairs were listed in the presentation. Just ask George"
ReplyDeleteWell, Anonymous, I emailed George Martinec several weeks ago (Sept 1st) to get a copy of the Facilities Committee Final Report and I have yet to receive a reply. He is very busy...so your comment of "Just ask George" isn't as simple as you imply.
Cynthia C., says,
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous of 11:21pm:
SUBJ: IT IS NOT SOP WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS --- IT IS A FRUSTRATED PARISH COMMUNITY
I would like to start with trying to clear up a misconception regarding this blog and all who post on it; namely that we at SOP continue to perpetuate negative comments and threads as a way to bring division within the parish or to just be mean and hurtful. THIS IS FALSE. This blog is viewed by a wide number of people. In August, there were over 1000 unique IP addresses that viewed our blog and website. At the Sunday meeting that we held, of the 100 people there, only 4 wanted to receive information from another source other than the blog/website. To assume that is only us at SOP who are making these posts is short sighted to magnitude of people who visit and contribute.
The blog/website is an effective method at getting communication out to the parish. We at SOP have tried to establish ground rules and are working very hard to keep this non-personal and positive. But the fact of the matter is that this community is frustrated and this is one of the few ways they can voice that frustration. I know this first hand when discussing ideas on Sunday in our small groups and the individuals voiced their opinions directly to me. I can tell you that this is not a frustration that is held by a small group of people. Your comment regarding
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
As a good friend of mine has said this morning, “ that group” of people are the parishioners of this community. We WILL NOT censor their angst. Direct attacks are not permitted and are diligently screened. But again, the idea that it is only us at SOP is incorrect.
With respect to the first two comments: We are working on getting the same information that has been made available to the other councils. We have invited the council members to our meeting on Sunday; we have asked for clarification during roll-out sessions. We have not received any other information from our requests. I assure you it is on our radar since we cannot work to resolve these issues without a clear understanding of what we are up against.
The notes from Sunday’s meeting will be posted on the website. Steve R has requested that we provide them with a list of our questions before the meeting and we will do so. We only have 15 min so they are only a synopsis of the results. We will also have copies of the Executive Summary available for those who attend the parish council meeting. I would encourage you to attend.
On a personal note, to answer your question:
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
Yes, I would and am in fact doing so. Our group has been attacked directly in the pulpit; we’ve been called “horrendous” during a homily. We’ve been told that we need to trust that God is in charge and to have faith in the current administration and that to not have that faith makes us bad people and divisive, implying that I don’t have faith in God.
Yet, I do trust that God is in charge. I can tell you that on the numerous times I wanted to walk away from this parish and go worship someplace else, that God revealed that I am to stay. I pray every day that God continues to guide the direction that I’m going and to correct my course so that I am doing His will.
So I leave you with a question: What if we are both right? That God is leading us all down each of these paths with an ultimate goal that is beyond what this administration wants, beyond what the diocese wants? Then do you have the courage to follow God’s call and to walk this path, regardless of the hurtful things that are said?
Again, I do and I am.
Cynthia C., says,
ReplyDeleteThis is part 1 of a 2-part post. Length issues.
To Anonymous of 11:21pm,
SUBJ: IT IS NOT SOP WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS --- IT IS A FRUSTRATED PARISH COMMUNITY
I would like to start with trying to clear up a misconception regarding this blog and all who post on it; namely that we at SOP continue to perpetuate negative comments and threads as a way to bring division within the parish or to just be mean and hurtful. THIS IS FALSE. This blog is viewed by a wide number of people. In August, there were over 1000 unique IP addresses that viewed our blog and website. At the Sunday meeting that we held, of the 100 people there, only 4 wanted to receive information from another source other than the blog/website. To assume that is only us at SOP who are making these posts is short sighted to magnitude of people who visit and contribute.
The blog/website is an effective method at getting communication out to the parish. We at SOP have tried to establish ground rules and are working very hard to keep this non-personal and positive. But the fact of the matter is that this community is frustrated and this is one of the few ways they can voice that frustration. I know this first hand when discussing ideas on Sunday in our small groups and the individuals voiced their opinions directly to me. I can tell you that this is not a frustration that is held by a small group of people. Your comment regarding
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
As a good friend of mine has said this morning, “ that group” of people are the parishioners of this community. We WILL NOT censor their angst. Direct attacks are not permitted and are diligently screened. But again, the idea that it is only us at SOP is incorrect.
Cynthia C., says,
ReplyDeleteThis is part 2.
With respect to the first two comments: We are working on getting the same information that has been made available to the other councils. We have invited the council members to our meeting on Sunday; we have asked for clarification during roll-out sessions. We have not received any other information from our requests. I assure you it is on our radar since we cannot work to resolve these issues without a clear understanding of what we are up against.
The notes from Sunday’s meeting will be posted on the website. Steve R has requested that we provide them with a list of our questions before the meeting and we will do so. We only have 15 min so they are only a synopsis of the results. We will also have copies of the Executive Summary available for those who attend the parish council meeting. I would encourage you to attend.
On a personal note, to answer your question:
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
Yes, I would and am in fact doing so. Our group has been attacked directly in the pulpit; we’ve been called “horrendous” during a homily. We’ve been told that we need to trust that God is in charge and to have faith in the current administration and that to not have that faith makes us bad people and divisive, implying that I don’t have faith in God.
Yet, I do trust that God is in charge. I can tell you that on the numerous times I wanted to walk away from this parish and go worship someplace else, that God revealed that I am to stay. I pray every day that God continues to guide the direction that I’m going and to correct my course so that I am doing His will.
So I leave you with a question: What if we are both right? That God is leading us all down each of these paths with an ultimate goal that is beyond what this administration wants, beyond what the diocese wants? Then do you have the courage to follow God’s call and to walk this path, regardless of the hurtful things that are said?
Again, I do and I am.
Cynthia C says,
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous of 11:21pm,
SUBJ: IT IS NOT SOP WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS --- IT IS A FRUSTRATED PARISH COMMUNITY
I would like to start with trying to clear up a misconception regarding this blog and all who post on it; namely that we at SOP continue to perpetuate negative comments and threads as a way to bring division within the parish or to just be mean and hurtful. THIS IS FALSE. This blog is viewed by a wide number of people. In August, there were over 1000 unique IP addresses that viewed our blog and website. At the Sunday meeting that we held, of the 100 people there, only 4 wanted to receive information from another source other than the blog/website. To assume that is only us at SOP who are making these posts is short sighted to magnitude of people who visit and contribute.
The blog/website is an effective method at getting communication out to the parish. We at SOP have tried to establish ground rules and are working very hard to keep this non-personal and positive. But the fact of the matter is that this community is frustrated and this is one of the few ways they can voice that frustration. I know this first hand when discussing ideas on Sunday in our small groups and the individuals voiced their opinions directly to me. I can tell you that this is not a frustration that is held by a small group of people. Your comment regarding
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
As a good friend of mine has said this morning, “ that group” of people are the parishioners of this community. We WILL NOT censor their angst. Direct attacks are not permitted and are diligently screened. But again, the idea that it is only us at SOP is incorrect.
(Continued below)
Pinging the website is really interesting. As I read the comments I think the number of people commenting is very small (maybe <10). I am saying this based on the tone of the messages and also based on the number of people that attended the Sunday meeting; I think the number was 100, is that correct? Whether that is 100 of the1350 that attend weekly mass or 100 of the 2500 parishioners: that is not a big percentage (4% to 7%). I do agree the message is important and needs to be heard but the numbers are small.
ReplyDeleteThe 15 minute time frame is what is set aside at parish council meetings for open forum. I would say what you present is very important. If you come in with a bunch of ideas you will not go far, if you come in with solid proposals I think you will get more time maybe not at the parish council meeting on the 27th but at another meeting.
Ann have you been to a small group “communications” session?
Mary please call George, a lot of emails get deleted or lost. If this data is as important as Juan C stated you would think you would do a little more than email once and then not get a response.
That is all for me, I am done, please prepare well to get your true message heard, assuming the objective is still to save St Vincent’s? You do have a good message, again based on the Sunday meeting, but need to develop some solid proposals that can be enacted.
Cynthia C says,
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous of 11:21pm,
SUBJ: IT IS NOT SOP WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE NEGATIVE COMMENTS --- IT IS A FRUSTRATED PARISH COMMUNITY
I would like to start with trying to clear up a misconception regarding this blog and all who post on it; namely that we at SOP continue to perpetuate negative comments and threads as a way to bring division within the parish or to just be mean and hurtful. THIS IS FALSE. This blog is viewed by a wide number of people. In August, there were over 1000 unique IP addresses that viewed our blog and website. At the Sunday meeting that we held, of the 100 people there, only 4 wanted to receive information from another source other than the blog/website. To assume that is only us at SOP who are making these posts is short sighted to magnitude of people who visit and contribute.
The blog/website is an effective method at getting communication out to the parish. We at SOP have tried to establish ground rules and are working very hard to keep this non-personal and positive. But the fact of the matter is that this community is frustrated and this is one of the few ways they can voice that frustration. I know this first hand when discussing ideas on Sunday in our small groups and the individuals voiced their opinions directly to me. I can tell you that this is not a frustration that is held by a small group of people. Your comment regarding
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
As a good friend of mine has said this morning, “ that group” of people are the parishioners of this community. We WILL NOT censor their angst. Direct attacks are not permitted and are diligently screened. But again, the idea that it is only us at SOP is incorrect.
(Continued below)
With respect to the first two comments: We are working on getting the same information that has been made available to the other councils. We have invited the council members to our meeting on Sunday; we have asked for clarification during roll-out sessions. We have not received any other information from our requests. I assure you it is on our radar since we cannot work to resolve these issues without a clear understanding of what we are up against.
ReplyDeleteThe notes from Sunday’s meeting will be posted on the website. Steve R has requested that we provide them with a list of our questions before the meeting and we will do so. We only have 15 min so they are only a synopsis of the results. We will also have copies of the Executive Summary available for those who attend the parish council meeting. I would encourage you to attend.
On a personal note, to answer your question:
“I would challenge you and your team to read back over the blogs and ask yourself (truthfully) would you work with a group that wrote that?”
Yes, I would and am in fact doing so. Our group has been attacked directly in the pulpit; we’ve been called “horrendous” during a homily. We’ve been told that we need to trust that God is in charge and to have faith in the current administration and that to not have that faith makes us bad people and divisive, implying that I don’t have faith in God.
Yet, I do trust that God is in charge. I can tell you that on the numerous times I wanted to walk away from this parish and go worship someplace else, that God revealed that I am to stay. I pray every day that God continues to guide the direction that I’m going and to correct my course so that I am doing His will.
So I leave you with a question: What if we are both right? That God is leading us all down each of these paths with an ultimate goal that is beyond what this administration wants, beyond what the diocese wants? Then do you have the courage to follow God’s call and to walk this path, regardless of the hurtful things that are said?
Again, I do and I am.
In response to Anonymous September 18, 11:21PM:
ReplyDelete1) Members of our team have reached out to George Martinec and have received no response from him. In another instance, Mr. Martinec was questioned by members of our team and he grew quite agitated and refused to answer their questions. But if you believe he has the answers regarding “key repairs” please contact him and see if he will provide you the information. If so, I or other members of the team would be more than willing to meet with you to obtain any information Mr. Martinec provides.
2) Running a deficit for 10 years is no way to run anything, whether it is a business, a household, or a Church. I can only comment about the past three years, being new to the area and the Parish, and in that time we have received little information regarding the budget deficit and, more importantly, we have seen little effort to increase fundraising, tithing, etc. to close said deficit. I know the “time, talent, treasure” program has been rolled out, but how effective can it be expected to be if it is only mentioned in passing? There needs to be a concentrated, focused effort by the Parish administration to increase fundraising and giving. The hands off, stand in the pulpit approach obviously continues to fail and needs to be changed. Only when the Parishioners see and feel that the Parish administration is involved in the community will they begin to believe it has their interest at heart. I cannot tell you an exact number but it was definitely noticed that no one, other than Fr. Lew, attended the meeting on the 12th. It is this, apparent, lack of involvement and concern on the part of the administration that is driving members away and decreasing collections.
3) The brainstorming information will be posted to the website for all to see. The executive summary, which will be given to the Parish Council, will be available for all who attend the meeting and may be posted prior to the meeting. We are still working out the final details of the executive summary at this time. What will be presented are not our (the SOP teams) ideas, but rather the ideas of the Parishioners who attended the meeting. All we are doing is taking them and putting them in a reader friendly format: we are not editing, changing, or deleting any of the ideas that made it up on the board at the meeting. So the information you request is already available for all who attended the meeting. Once the brainstorming information is posted people will be able to comment as they see fit. But I must add, and this is in no way an attempt to limit peoples input, that given the time limitations we will, unfortunately, not be able to include every idea, comment or suggestion in our presentation to the Parish Council.
4) I have taken your suggestion and read over numerous threads and blog posts and you are correct there is anger, angst and frustration evident in the posts. But there are far more positive and uplifting comments. So I must ask why do you fail to point out this fact? We are trying to overcome one of the most oft mentioned issues when discussing the Parish…a lack of open communication channels within the Parish. This site has given a voice to those who have been silenced for too long. While there are negative comments made, these are policed and deleted if they are deemed too inflammatory, and every attempt is made to keep the site positive while not silencing the voice of the Parishioners.
5) Finally, regarding your comment about working together…we are all adults and need to put our ego and personal feeling aside. The issues we seek to address are not our own, but rather the Parish as a whole. There has been numerous rumors and negative comments made about SOP, but we still hold out the olive branch of peace and are willing to work with the administration to improve the Parish. Why would they not want to work with an organization who only seeks to help the Parish?
SOP Core team: As you pull your proposal together you most likely will develop a proposal that could save St. V, but the biggest question you need to ask yourself is should we?
ReplyDeleteTo Seot.20, 9:16 a.m. I reply to your question of "should we save St.V." As one who attended one of the parish presentations I would have to conclude yes....Given the emphasis on the cost of facilities presently and the cost of getting one of the sites up to "code" so to speak, according to reparis short and long range St. Vincent's was less costly than ST. M and even askinbg a question regarding space did not necessarily rule out St.V. So my question is "What really, and truthfully is the reason for choosing St. Mary's?"
ReplyDeleteSt. Marys is able to hold 500+ people, St V is not. Most likely no one would buy St. M, and an offer was made on St.V.
ReplyDelete10:39am- Saint Mary's was never listed for sale. Why would anybody make an offer if the property is not for sale? You appear to have total disregard for the location, convenience and accessibility Saint Vincent's has over Saint Mary's.
ReplyDeleteYou also are not factoring into the equation the number of converts who are directly linked to Saint Vincent's through the RCIA program that Alene facilitated. For many of these people, the only faith community they have experienced is the one at Saint Vincent's. Saint Vincent's is more that just a building to these people, it is where their journey began. You fail to acknowledge the fear and sense of loss these people are facing.
ReplyDeleteSomeone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that SV can hold about 485 people on a crowded Sunday. Not much of a difference.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous (of September 20, 10:39 AM)said...St. Marys is able to hold 500+ people, St V is not. Most likely no one would buy St. M, and an offer was made on St.V."
ReplyDeleteAgain, just because an offer is made does not mean we have to accept it. Accepting it because we need the money and we need to "right-size" our parish (buildings) also is not a convincing argument. I want more than that. If, however, the parishioners were made a part of the discernment process MONTHS ago, and as a parish we decided to accept this offer, I may feel differently.
Back up the process...let us make this HUGE decision TOGETHER...it is not too late.
I think it's all a done deal and we are beating our heads against the wall. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that St. Mary's is a money pit and that St.V's isn't. In it's day it was state of the art but that day has come and gone. An outsider was sent from Rochester to do their dirty work and once it's done it will be on to another place to cause damage there. In the meantime the outside churches are filling up, and happily, I might add.
ReplyDelete5:16pm- If this is a done deal, I am done with this parish. If leadership does not reconsider, I will no longer be able to support All Saints. There has been a tremendous and passionate outpouring from the parishioners. At minimum, Deacon Dean needs to cease negotiations on the sale of Saint Vincent's. We need time as an entire parish to determine what is best for the future. Time is needed for discussion, prayer and healing. Dean has been labeled as possessing a self-serving vision, he has a great opportunity to turn the tide to his favor; he needs to work with his parishioners. All of them, not just the select who support his decisions.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why people keep saying that we as parishoners should have been involved "months ago"...for one thing, the offer came in, what, June? By the time the councils analyzed all the options, the idea was shared with parishoners as soon as possible--August. That is the role of the councils. Wasn't that the point of the video during mass? To get the parishoners involved and attend the facilities meetings? It astounds me how many people get so mad and offended just because they PROPOSED the idea to sell St. V!! In the business world you can't just share every little bit of information with everybody immediately--maybe Providence Housing didn't want to be identified until two months of deliberation? Nothing official has happened yet!!!! Be thankful you are able to meet with the Councils! In addition, it astounds me how little everyone here seems to trust our parish leadership and diocesen leadership at large. What on earth do they have to gain by making difficult decisions such as closing a church unless they honestly thought it was their only option?? These are people who have dedicated their lives to the Catholic Church. I also think that if a priest was running our parish people would be less quick to criticize...don't forget that Catholicism is not a democracy, never has been.
ReplyDeleteTo 10:34. If a good, holy and humble Priest (Father Billotte comes to mind) were running the parish and informed the parishioners that "with great sadness" this decision was reached, you are right, most parishioners would have rallied behind him. Parishioners tend to do this when they trust and love their leaders. But Father Phil is not leading our parish, Deacon Condon is. The Deacon's tenure has been blemished with multiple questionable and poor decisions. Money has been delegated to the music ministry when we had no money to spend. Key staff people have left on their on accord and other's been removed. We are left with a bare bone staff, parishioners who stay reluctantly, leave regularly and withhold finacial contributions. Do you truly question why there is division in this parish?
ReplyDeleteWow. So let’s see. St Mary’s actually can hold 585 with room for expansion, so big difference.
ReplyDeleteChris, my family grew up in St V. My wife and I were married there, my kids were baptized, how’s that for a journey?
Joe, I am sorry for you that the only thing that is holding you to this parish is the building. Very tough stance your way or no way....this is the same game that you are accusing the leadership of doing, isn’t it? Good luck with that.
10:34 good comments.
Well said, Carol, well said.
ReplyDeleteCarol--(1) in the Leader's article, Deacon Dean said (and has said from the pulpit) that this was a sad and difficult decision to come to. (2) What extra money has been spent on music ministry? A conversation with both the Deacon and AND business manager will tell you that costs to pay the music staff has decreased significantly. (3) Our staff currently has 16 people on it. That is much bigger than the staff at ABC, Elmira, Horseheads, etc. I would not call that "bare-bones". And as a I read from the bulletin it seems all the same programs are continuing to run. God bless all the hard working people on our staff!!
ReplyDeleteI have a great idea, layoff more staff so we can be even with ABC, Elmira and Horseheads....where are you going with this?
ReplyDelete6:56 am- You are twisting my words. If I leave the parish it is not because of a building, in particular Saint Vincent's. My faith is much stronger than concrete and mortar. If I leave the parish, it is because, after much patience and many prayers, I will have decided that I have no confidence in the current administration. If you perceive this as a "my way or no way" approach- so be it. Just curious- in your opinion, is there ever a time when it is appropriate or necessary to stand up to leadership? To question their judgement? Or does our faith require that we submit to all authority? Just curious.
ReplyDeleteMe thinks we got ourselves a nibble from the Central Office.
ReplyDelete8:05. Quite possibly but we do need to acknowledge that there are some parishioners who support the current staff and administration. Definitely a minority but we can't dismiss these people. However, these people should not attempt to paint the picture that all is well. My daughter attended the opening night for the youth program last Sunday and all is not well. There is low attendance. Most all of her friends are not coming. If the children are the future of All Saints parish, we need to figure out a better way to connect them to the parish.
ReplyDeleteI still go back to the "process" used at ASP. The diocese has a well stated process for strategic planning. It states that a strategic planning committee needs to be formed and a thorough study made. While doing this study it specifically states that the committeer is to keep the parish informed on findings and updates throughout the process via pulpit, inserts in bulletin and or periodic parish meetings. That was not done and according to any info I can get the first official meeting called Strategic Planning was held on JUNE 10, 2010. a FACILITIES COMMITTEE SEEMED TO DO ALL THE STUDY.To have just a facility study is missing the core purpose of a church building. There is more to Sunday worship and the lived faith of a COMMUNITY than just space. Check the process used and see if it is in keepiong with diocese norms.
ReplyDeleteThere are always those who support any authority even when it is obvious they are in the wrong. The very fact that a blog had to be created to get someone's attention speaks for itself. There needs to be a time when enough is enough and time for that authority figure to ride off into the sunset.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 8:06--that is what we should be focusing on: generating ideas to help support our youth ministry program. This endless bickering about how we don't like this person on this committee, or how we think such-and-such isn't humble, etc.--isn't helping and is just causing us to wallow in our own unhappiness. We should be focused on positive things and new ideas to work with the parish leadership. If we don't like the parish leadership, [and I mean this in the best possible way] then we should move on and find a different place that makes us happy. If we don't, we are making ourselves and everyone else who works so hard in the parish miserable. Let's stop focusing on the past and be productive.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12:23--exactly what makes the leadership "obviously" wrong? If you are referring to the sale of St. V's, do you know of a "correct" decision? That is what often seems to be apparant in our blog comments--we criticize all day long, but offer no alternative solution. I know that they are working on one, but still, individual contributors here seem to just tear down and tear down without offer a solution to "build up."
The above comment was addressed to 11:06, not 8:06--sorry
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of Sept 20 at 10:34 said, "It astounds me how many people get so mad and offended just because they PROPOSED the idea to sell St. V!! In the business world you can't just share every little bit of information with everybody immediately--maybe Providence Housing didn't want to be identified until two months of deliberation? Nothing official has happened yet!!!!"
ReplyDeleteI heard the word "PROPOSED" in the video but when I attended a meeting the following Saturday it was presented in such a way that "The Bishop owns the buildings and churches so we just have to get him to sign off on it...AND WHY WOULDN'T HE." I believe those who have signed the petition, perhaps have a yard sign up, or are praying for an alternative are doing what they are doing to show the Bishop WHY HE SHOULDN'T just sign-off on it. There is more to it than just money AND parishes/churches shouldn't be run like businesses because, businesses are usually run to make money.
I still believe we can back-up the process and as a faith-filled community of believers make a decision together..."empowered by the Holy Spirit to enthusiastically build-up the Kingdom of God."
Adding to Mary C.:
ReplyDeleteOur presenter also made the statement that the deal was pretty much done.
The issue I am having with the process is that we did not get a red flag that the finances were in such dire straits that selling off properties was the only solution. If we had known, our family would have and could have done what we could to help preserve what we could: swung hammers, replace sheetrock, poured concrete, wrote a check, whatever. When asked, we always did what we could. We are not being asked in this instance...
I understand that not every tid-bit can be discussed, but don't you think someone could have stated a year ago, after Providence House made their first offer, "We are sinking, and this is the type of life preserver that is being thrown to us. There is still time to bail water, but we need to buy buckets and people to man the bucket line before we go under."
Where was that call to arms?
To 7:25am 1) Are you saying that the decision is made to sell Saint Vincent's? We are being told that we are in the "consideration" phase. I have not sensed that Deacon Dean feels the depth of the sadness in this community. 2) Many would like to know the amount of money spent in the last 4 years on drums and keyboards and mics and sound systems and so forth. In a good, financial secure environment, maybe parishioners would not take issue with these expenses. But as Dean has stated many times, he has known for the last 4 years that the parish was in deep financial trouble. 3) The programs are suffering. You can only sugar coat for so long.
ReplyDeleteWell written Anonymous 1:38pm. Is someone going to answer this?
ReplyDeleteOne other comment, every year the Deacon or Father or someone from Finance comes to the parish to talk about tithing. Do you think they were doing that for the fun of it? Also every year in the bulletin the finance committee puts the year end financial statement, have we ever really read this?
To above- You make good points and I say yes, I did read, I did listen. We all knew there wasn't enough money but yet we all saw how money was being spent. To echo above- new camera's for masses, more stuff for the musicians, more money put into the rectory, air conditioning units in most windows at the rectory, thousands of dollars into the new teen mass program...just to name a few. We heard leadership talking the talk but didn't see him walking the walk. Have i answered your question?
ReplyDeleteTo Carol 1) Just because you "sense" something doesn't mean its a reality. What do you want the Deacon to do to make it seem like "he feels the depth of sadness"? In our Oprah culture we seem to want our leaders to get up and be all emotional in front of us. He's just being professional--(2) The above claim that there was "thousands of dollars into the new teen mass program" is ridiculous. As someone who knows the many in the music ministry I can tell you that no new equipment was purchased for that, and much of the equipment is actually donated and personally owned by the musicians themselves, NOT by the church. The same goes for that at our other worship sites. And as for new cameras for the TV mass, what is the problem with that? Do our homebound parishoners not deserve to see the TV mass in good quality? They are many sponsers (such as Bright Ideas and the funeral home) who take care of the funding for such things. And I also find the comments about the rectory distasteful--what would you suggest they do as an alternative? (3) By the programs I assume you mean the youth program, yes? Well here's something we all need to consider, gang--the quality of these programs are largely dependent not on the staff member running it, but our duty as parishoners to support it. If we refuse to take part in family faith formation, participate in RCIA, send our kids to youth group, volunteer on the various committees in the parish, and encourage others to do the same, we are stunting the growth of the churches' programs and not building up the Kingdom of God. We are a burden to the church and not a blessing. Jesus did not say to evangelize "only when we feel like it and agree with everything our local parish does"...but to make disciples of all nations at all times. Just something to consider......
ReplyDeleteSeeings you are in tight with the leadership, get the leadership to post the financials on the blog, line item by line item, every detail and then see if you can continue to stick up for our great leadership. Bet it will never happen!
ReplyDeleteDon't know how many air conditoners there are or how many drums were purchased but I guess that's the point. Do we ever know what the parish purchases? I have noticed in the ABC bulletin that if something is purchased, even something like new carpet, this information is in the bulletin. It feels like we argue about who has purchased what and how much money may have been spent but the fact is nobody knows because this information is never shared. My suggestion would be to have a spot in the bulletin for parish purchases. It doesn't have to include essentials like toilet paper or pens and pencils but purchases that exceed a certain amount. If there was more transparency, there would be less accusation and speculation.
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous 8:23 p.m., thanks for your comments. I think many of the rumors about spending and financials in the Parish would clear up if there was transparency. If parishioners knew where the money was going it would help with the trust factor and would dispel a lot of rumors. Again, this is something that does not seem to be getting through to leadership -- open the windows and doors and let the sun shine in. Open. The. Doors.
ReplyDeleteContinuing to berate parishioners for withdrawing from active participation is also another tactic that has proven ineffective. Parishioners did not leave on a lark. There are serious issues here, and they must be addressed with humility. Leadership will never get anywhere by continuing to avoid its share of responsibility for the state of affairs. Don't you think so?
Regarding the youth ministry, I think Cory is somewhat disadvantaged because of the recent history with the youth group. He and the youth ministry and kids certainly deserve our prayers, as does the FBI group and ministry leaders.
You say, "...the quality of these [parish] programs are largely dependent not on the staff member running it, but our duty as parishioners to support it."
Hmmmm. That's a little simplistic. Sometimes programs don't work and aren't supported because they don't meet the needs, are outdated, or some other such reason.
Someone once posted here that the parish was reaching out with the coffee and donuts program again, but that just as in the past, it wasn't working. We tried a coffee and donuts chat forum on the website. Poorly attended. Wasn't working. Poof, it was gone.
Regarding the comment that parishioners should be 'making disciples of all nations' -- you are right! And I hope and pray that the staff is taking that same responsibility to heart and working to turn around the exodus of parishioners that has happened over the last few years.
Ann- You are right. I remember when the rectory was renovated. First I heard at a cost of $20,000, then I heard $30,000 and then $40,000. Maybe it was more or maybe less but every person that puts even a dollar in the collection basket has a right to know what was done and how much it cost. When information like this is withheld, it feels like something secretive is going on, when maybe this is not the case. You shouldn't have to sit on the finance council to know details about parish finances. Whether the money is going into the Priest's rectory or the Deacon's rectory, let's open the books.
ReplyDelete8:23pm stated: Well here's something we all need to consider, gang--the quality of these programs are largely dependent not on the staff member running it, but our duty as parishoners to support it.
ReplyDeleteHeres's something YOU need to consider: the quality of these programs is DIRECTLY dependant on the staff member running it! Look no further than Alene Goodman and Marie McCaig. Hello? You discredit all that they did with your statement. They were blessed with the charisma to attract both the young and the old to their programs.
Participation, or rather lack of, is a direct reflection of leadership. Always.
ReplyDeleteWe keep bringing up the old staff members. They're not coming back, so lets stop continuously whining about it. It gets nothing done and doesn't make people feel any better. How long must we stay stuck in the past? Mary L. --Are you saying that people like Cory, Mary Ann, Trish and Fr. Lew will not be able to fill their shoes? You haven't even given them a chance yet.
ReplyDeletePeople will eventually get tired of always complaining about something that can't be changed. To everyone who comments on this blog, you had better change your way of attracting new supporters with positive energy, than with negative energy. Negative energy can only last so long and it is not a healthy thing to focus on continuously.
11:33am- No need to be so defensive. I didn't make any comments on the capabilities of anyone on staff. I merely stated that the people who run the programs (past and present) have a direct influence on the number who participate. Simple truth.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how anybody could argue about this one- of course it matters who is leading! Isn't that why we are where we are today? I don't care if it is RCIA, Welcome Home, youth ministry, Bible school, Bible study, Healing mass, whatever,people come if they feel comfortable and connect with the person in charge.
ReplyDelete"We criticize all day long, but offer no alternative solution. "
ReplyDeleteThis is, in my opinion, the most profound statement in this thread. People keep focusing on a building, or past staff members, Dean, lack of communication and the list goes on and on. We can continue to dance around the these points forever, but we will never move forward and begin the healing process until we stop complaining and start offering solutions. The meeting held by SOP on September 12th was an attempt to begin the healing process by looking for solutions to our litany of (real and/or perceived) problems. This is where we need to focus our energy and Prayers...how do we solve our problems.
I must ask, what are we trying to achieve? I think the universal answer is to Save Our Parish, to enhance our faith community, and restore the financial health of ASP in the process. If buildings must be sold to accomplish this...then so be it. If staff must be reduced (16 seems rather large for a Parish our size)...again so be it. But all those steps are just band-aids on the wound. They do not address the fundamental problem, which as I read it is a lack of open communication channels between the Parishioners and the administration which has resulted in a lack of trust.
What we (Parishioners and STAFF) need to be analyzing is how do we restore that trust? How can each and every individual in the Parish work together to accomplish this? We can continue to point fingers at Deacon Dean (and I only mention him because he has already been mentioned so often), but that fails to solve our problems. We need to lay down our anger, lack of trust, and fear and decide that we are all going to work together to SAVE OUR PARISH!
I revert back to the opening quote: "We criticize all day long, but offer no alternative solution" and this is will be our downfall. But based on the number of comments and the strong feelings conveyed in those comments I do not believe anyone wants or is willing to accept failure. We all have our own vision of what ASP should be and I would lay odds that (regardless of the number of buildings, etc) the vision is of a family united in our love of Christ, united in our believe in the principles of our Catholic faith.
People it is time to start moving towards that vision. It is time we stop complaining and being part of the problem. It is time we start working together to solve the problems faced by our Parish so that 10, 15, or 20 years from now we can look back on this time and say WE AS A COMMUNITY CAME TOGETHER & SAVED ALL SAINTS PARISH!
Juan; I don't disagree with you but would like you to explain how to "lay down our lack of trust" in leadership? In my experience, trust is earned not freely given. In light of all that has transpired in the past 4 years, do you really think it is possible or even prudent to trust leadership? To me, this is like asking a spouse to trust her husband who continues to cheat on her. How foolish would that be. There will be no trust until we are confident that there is a change of heart, a change of direction and a change in philosophy. I do think you have a great plan and a great spirit but worry that it is not practical. First, we have to know that leadership (Deacon Dean) assumes some responsibility for the state of the parish. Secondly, he needs to assure us that he will work with us IN ALL MATTERS toward healing. Do you think this is possible? I hope so.
ReplyDeleteThere are 7, yes seven, Catholic Churches in Elmira/ Elmira Heights. We are being told that there is only a need for only 1 in Corning. Somebody please explain.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that there are only 1-2 masses a most of the Elmira churches (I think there are 3 for one of them), and they are very much smaller than our two large catholic churches. They are having financial difficulties just like us, thats why they've consolidated into two parishes. Two sustain their buildings on smaller congregations is difficult (though, mostly depending on which one we're talking about, for some are much more expensive to upkeep than others), thats why I would not be surprised if within the next few years they need to shed 2-3 churches. Elmira is a funny example for churches--I think it is the town with the greatest number of churches in our diocese (check the DOR website), The churches were probably built in the industry boom with many catholic immigrants many years ago and they needed to accommodate. Times have changed.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what your point is- mine is that they have been able to keep 7 Churches open in spite of the difficult times you refer to.
ReplyDeleteFWIW:
ReplyDeleteAuburn - population ~28,000 - 7 churches
Elmira - population ~39,000 - 6 churches
Elmira Heights - population ~4,000 - 1 church
Corning - population ~11,000 - 3 churches
Demographically, not accounting for population density, we should look at Auburn and see what we can model on and borrow from them.
Obviously this is back of the envelope, as the number of churches and the population of, say, Rochester is hard to make a direct correlatation between poplation and churches serving that population. I am sure the population density of the ABC Parish would also be skewed as the populations and square mileage of the parish being served by those churches is interesting. Although you could segment the population of the specific townships and the local church serving that township.
Question - could Corning support 2 parishes?
Just crunching numbers for the heck of it- the total population for above is 82,000. Divide this by the number of churches covering this population, 17, and you come up with an average population of 4,823 PER ONE CHURCH. With our population of 11,000, sustaining 2 Churches should not be an issue. The fact that it is an issue, is the issue.
ReplyDeleteAuburn is a very conservative, traditional parish. Need I say more? Much credit to the late Father Shammon.
ReplyDeleteThe Southside rectory/home. This is where you will find a prime example of self indulgence on the part of current leadership. Fact: $20,000 was spent PRIOR to the Condons moving in. ie. New toilets, window dressings, carpet cleaning etc. After moving in, many weeks of labor dollars spent on painting the entire inside to the liking of Condon. Not to mention paint and supplies. Complete makeover of the kitchen including brand new appliances washer/dryer etc. Painting of the garage floor!!? 12 air conditioners. Thousand dollar patio.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Why do our maintainence people need to vaccum Condons house weekly? (they really do!) Who approves all of this?
A $56,000 a year salary (approx.) Living rent and utility free. (you do the math) I also believe there is a cost of living stipend in there too.
Might I suggest an unannounced walk thru inspection of OUR building. While there, be sure to visit the attic. It's a fire tragedy waiting to happen.
To Beth September 23, 2010 4:27 AM ,
ReplyDeleteI am saying we need to stop wielding our lack of trust like a club which we are using to beat the administration into submission. Quite honestly, I believe the continued reference to a lack of trust and the calling out of Dean directly will only make it harder for us to reach our goals. More importantly than that it detracts from our message of wanting parish unity and healing.
What I was not saying was that we just wake up tomorrow and "magically" have trust. You are correct, there will have to be a process where we learn to trust one another. The skepticism we bring to the table will help us to seek out the details and fundamental logic behind various decisions and not just be a proverbial "yes" man.
Of course we cannot be the only ones trying to rebuild the required trust. We have and will extended our hand out to the administration in an effort to begin the healing process and rebuilding of trust. We look forward to working with them to resolve the issues faced by our Parish. But we cannot do it alone, we need reciprocation by the administration and the help of all the Parishioners.
There have been ample opportunities to say "I was/am wrong" but arrogance wins over in this struggle. People in positions of authority who are craving attention need to stay in the spotlight.
ReplyDeleteIs it true that the Condons worship and attend services at Victory Highway? If this is true, somehow this gives a strong feeling that his own family isn't supporting the church and/or the leadership.
ReplyDeleteUgh I am tired of this ridiculous rumors that the Condons attend services at Victory Highway. If you go to the 9:30/11:30/6:00 masses you see the family is always doing something musically related at mass. Or don't you people go enough of our masses to recognize them?? I don't know how these wacky rumors start.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:50 AM--where are you getting these "facts" from?? And by the way, the church owns the rectory, so it will be around for many years after the Condons leave. So I would imagine that repairs/improvements would benefit any use that building becomes, whether it becomes parish offices, meeting spaces, priest housing, etc.